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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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A few things to remember Blue, the illegals work for less which means many things in america cost less. Plus the cost of giving them things like health care is offset by the taxes they pay and by the fact that they pay social security taxes but can't collect it. I wonder what a proper study would show about the net gain or loss to America of having illegals working here.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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"Life is about clearly living out the parameters of the founding fathers. They had foresight and clarity for this country. "
While that aplies, I would wager they weren't so prepared for the topic we're discussing here, Lynne. Different times, different issues. Back in their day, if you were lazy and didn't work your ass off, you simply starved. No big entity in the sky to take care of you. Your worth was in your labor. Not to say there weren't poor people. Just that lazy, mooching types weren't nearly as common.
Rather than living in a time when a guy who works his ass off (hunting, growing crops, felling trees and building, etc) made as much as he was willing to work, a guy that works his ass off now is helping to support folks who haven't worked in years. Different times.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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One can be against illegal immigration, or even against legal immigration, and not be a racist. Too often, though, rants against illegal immigration start to sound xenophobic and bigoted, and quite often they are. Xenophobia, bigotry, racism, and illegal immigration have one very common characteristic...an idea of 'us and them'. It's easy to see how a strong opinion against immigration would be construed as racist.
With that said, one can also be against illegal immigration and have compelling reasons for this belief, and still a be a racist...who uses this topic to vent racist frustrations. It's easy to see how bluering's statement could be construed as racist. Outspoken racists usually sound vitriolic and hateful. Well, that's just bluering. Jesus must have told him to be that way.
Me personally, I'm all for legal immigration and an improved US immigration policy. However, I do believe the US should police its borders, like every other first world country.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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I think the Tulare grower's problem matches my own experience. My first real job in high school was agricultural labor -- specifically picking grapes for raisins. I chose that because I could make in a couple of weeks as much as my friends who worked for the (Lyndon Johnson/Pat Brown) minimum wage made all summer. I made enough to buy a rope, enough webbing for aid slings, ten runners and lots of rappel anchors, 20 'biners and 20 chrome moly pegs, and 2 pairs of shoes and a Yosemite Hammer in one harvest season.
Contrary to DMT's assumption, harvesting pays substantially more than a living wage. There's three problems: (1) construction pays more, (2) harvesting doesn't pay well until you get the hang of the technique, and (3)those inconvenient fruits have relatively short-lived harvest seasons, so you need to keep moving around to where the fruit is ready to pick. That pretty much kills your children's chances to get a good education.
Contrary to Blue's assumption, however, the migrant workers take no jobs away from citizens. The citizens have organized their lives to make it impossible for them to do the work. First, as I said, you need to know the technique before it becomes lucrative. The best time to learn is when you're young. When I was in high school (in the 1960's), school here didn't start until the Monday after Labor Day. Now it starts in the middle of August, i.e., just about the time to harvest Thompson seedless grapes if you're making raisins. Picking grapes -- an ideal teenage job -- is now impossible for teenagers here unless they become truants.
To make matters worse, the homework load in modern high schools makes meaningful, paying work an either-or proposition. A student may either work for money, or take AP classes, but not both. I question whether the extra homework really teaches anything more, particularly after watching my daughters go through mountains of homework in high school, but retain virtually nothing. The need to "re-center" the SAT's to hide the declining test scores bears me out on that.
Quite simply, immigration is not a zero-sum game, and it saddens me to see so many otherwise free-marketeers try to restrict the supply of labor. Immigrant laborers don't take from this country; they give. They are criminals only in the sense that they run afoul of racist immigration rules. (Lest you jump on me for calling them that, why is it that I, a native-born American, get to wait years for my relatives to come here, while those of different national origin can bring their relatives here immediately? Why should I have different rights from someone of, say, Western European origin, just because my national origin isn't from Western Europe?)
I do agree with Blue on one thing: those illegal immigrants who commit other crimes in this country should serve time in their own countries' prisons. They do cost us money, and contribute nothing but grief. Otherwise, though, I think we need to re-do our immigration and work rules to fit justice and reality. I'm sorry, but I just can't get worked up over someone who comes here to work, and who demands virtually nothing but his or her wages. They could teach our citizens a few good lessons about entitlements.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:01am PT
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Mr Moosie fails to grasp one of the principal reasons for hiring an illegal; Zero Paperwork.
This means zero Social Security tax paid, which is the real reason they "can't collect".
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Ummm, yeah. When you're working under a fake name or under the table, you're not paying taxes or soc. sec.
It really sounds like most of us are at least on the same path. It really doesn't sound so much as people are against immigration. Of course some are. And, as JElezerian said, of course some are just bigots.
I'd really like to see it all overhauled so that it works for all and benefits the folks who come here and bust there ass. At the same time, I'd like to see the deadbeats and criminals and dead weight types have there chains cut so they can fall back into the sea from which they came.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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I thought Ol blue married a cute Asian girl?
I am the only white guy in production at work.
I work with about 10 Vietnamese people.
And one Mexican thrown in for good measure.
It has been a pleasure to work with these folks for 15 years.
They are never late, never sick, never drunk, they work faster and harder, they don't talk back (except Ernesto), only sometimes do I get pissed because they speak Vietnames all day, and when they laugh at a good joke, I feel excluded, but have managed to not let it bother me. And i have managed to learn enuff of the lingpo to not get ripped off in Saigon City.
not Ho Chi min City.
Please.
Chao Tam Biet'
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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Now if someone wants to make a bold claim that the world belongs to he who has the most guns - well OK. But I can't handle the hypocrisy of people who cop a self-righteous tone and call others "illegals". Fock, we're all illegals - unless you happen to have a deed signed my the man upstairs. If you don't like it go home to Ireland, or Germany or England, or where ever your sorry family came from. Neo-cons are SOO pathetic.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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There are two side to every story.
I bet you have a job right now.
The poor old white guy next door pours mud for a living.
He has to work harder because the illegals do the work for so cheap that he gets outbid on all his construction jobs.
So he has no choice but to drop his rates to match up.
As an independent, company of one, I can see his angry views on immigration.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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I grew up with Illegals. They had stolen social security numbers and fake Ids. They paid taxes. They just couldn't collect any benefits because the numbers were on someone else's social security. They rarely collect unemployment because it is too dangerous. They often work through agencies that help them do the paperwork. Farmers pay taxes because it is too dangerous not to. The IRS is more dangerous then the immigration officers. Housekeepers who work through an agency have the same deal. Yes there are jobs that pay cash, but those are fewer then you think and the employer is also breaking the law. These agencies that illegals work through were set up to insulate the farmers from prosecution.
Edit: And no, I am not supporting illegals. I am just pointing out a few things. I would love to see immigration reform, but I don't know what the answer is.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Yes, this is true now, John. Wasn't when I was a kid 20 years ago though.
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adam d
climber
CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:43am PT
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regardless of your stance on undocumented immigrants (no I don't call them illegal. actions are illegal not people.) I hope people on both sides can see that the amount of money that has been spent on an ineffective border fence is absurd.
Not only is it extremely expensive and it does not have to adhere even to the minor inconvenience of an EIS, but several studies have shown that it only alters migration patterns rather than curtailing them. In fact, some studies show that increased border enforcement is keeping undocumented immigrants in the US when they would rather return to Mexico for part of the year.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 04:25am PT
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This is a joke issue (although there are issue involved) because the real vested interests are the conservatives.
Half the conservatives like to think of the Illegals as the poster childs for government money going to undeserving poor illegal people.
The other half are wealthy (or not so wealthy) farmers and business people who won't or can't pay sustainable "american" wages to induce legal citizens to pick crops, mow lawns and do the dirty work.
It seems disingenuous when they point to "Liberals" for all the problems associated with this issue. You can round up an kick out 12 million people in a variety of fairly harsh ways, but you don't really have a clue who is going to be hurt or helped economically by it.
It's kind of like a "Don't ask, Don't tell" solution to something they really don't want solved as much as they think
PEace
Karl
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Feb 10, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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An aspect to this that you don't see discussed much, at least not among the Bluering the Limbaugh Drone wingnut crowd:
Age wave. In short, the boomers are all about to start retiring and the worker to retiree ratio is going to plummet from around 16:1 in 1950 to about 2:1 once the boomers retire. Families are also smaller these days, exacerbating the problem. The USA, most of Europe and Japan are in the same boat.
So in a very real sense, we NEED immigrants. Not just because they'll do work we won't, but to help support our aging population.
I live with two guys who are British and Irish, and are pursuing citizenship. Both have been in the US legally for about 8 years. They pay taxes, and fill jobs where we have shortages of qualified workers. The hoops to citizenship, or even legal immigration are overly burdensome. These guys have spent thousands going through the process and more thousands having to return to Britain occasionally to renew work visas.
We don't need to get rid of immigrants, we need MORE immigrants. We need to streamline the immigration process and expand temporary worker programs. We need to give amnesty to those already here and welcome them into the fold to expand our tax revenue base and confront the age wave.
You shouldn't be angry with the immigrants, they are just doing what all of our ancestors did (pardon me if you're native american). You should be angry with those who hire them and pay them so little that they are dependent on public services. It is that business owner that is cheating you, and subsidizing his payroll via your taxes that pay for those public services.
But I don't hear the Limbaugh drones complaining about those small business owners. Nope, much easier to HATE THE OTHER.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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I'm actually shocked I wasn't called a racist or bigot more here.
I thought this would've been obvious, but let me state I'm not opposed to documented legal immigration. Whether it be for low-skilled jobs or higher-skilled jobs like engineers.
The problem I have is when qualified Americans are overlooked for lower-paid immigrants. What is the net-effect of this?
And yeah, I do agree there are a lot of Lazy Americans that feel they're 'entitled' to certain pay without paying their dues in the trenches. I personally know worthless people like this.
I'm also not denying the fact that employers are almost equally to blame.
It's a uneasy problem that keeps getting ignored by lawnakers.
There's also the cost of social services that puts a unnecessary strain on economies.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Nice Post, Ricky D.
You hit the nail on the head.
I've had the very same experiences that you have
with immigrants.
There's no such thing as an illegal human being. Period.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Interesting.
Those people who are SCREAMING about not raising taxes to pay for services, who SHOUT about how Gov't is the problem, not the solution, who want to "Starve the Beast" by cutting income to the Gov't.....
Are now the ones who want to create a massive new GOV'T program, paid for by TAXES.
What happened to that integity involved with smaller gov't and lower taxes? Ya only believe in that when it is convenient?
(like we didn't know.......)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Dingus and Ken, I see. Maybe we should just completely open our borders, after all, we 'stole' California and have no more right to be here than anyone else who wants to come. And how dare we enforce U.S. border laws. That's totally xenophobic! The only people that come here are well-intentioned, tax-paying migrant workers, nobody else.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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Don't forget bluey, they pay into social security and
get nothing for it too!
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 10, 2009 - 02:27pm PT
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"Other than a few property owners on the border almost all illegal immigrantion protest is born of xenophobia.
White Californians, for exmaple, have a 150+ year sordid history of rasism and ethnic insult, prejudice and descrimination.
First it was the Indians and Mexicans. Then it was the Chinese. Then came the Irish, the Oakies, the Filipinos, more mexicans (the ones who were screwed over and ROBBED in WWII - by CA farmers) - a host of nationalities and ethnicities. Oh sh#t they REALLY stuck it to the Japanese, virtually OUTLAWED them around the turn of the 20th century. Started a path of degeneration that eventually led to the pacific theater of WWII.
Virtually none of them have escaped the White Wrath of Xenophobic Californians who have no more right to be here than the next woman."
Dingus, I mostly agree, BUT it is not just limited to Californians.
A fundamental current of conservatism has been an antipathy to diversity. It goes back to the early days of the US, and includes the groups you mention plus, at one time or another, an antipathy towards granting equality to blacks, eastern Europeans, Jews, Catholics, Germans, Muslims/Arabs, gays, or women. It's been about preserving the status of WASP men (though catholics seem to be welcome nowadays).
Now we see this trend manifested in the religious right and the Michael Savage (who is basically a skinhead with hair) xenophobic wing.
This is why conservatism will never disappear: there will always be a "them." But now the thems are increasingly outnumbering the conservatives, so politically they have a problem.
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