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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 9, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Would it help or hinder our economy to control illegal immigration? According to Obama there're a bunch of peopel in Indiana eating on food-stamps because there are NO JOBS and we're losing more. What if Americans took the jobs that ilegal immigrants are doing?
Also, if these criminal aliens had to go home, how much would we save in social costs like healthcare, schooling, less crowded prisons (by 28%!!!)?
Obama said he'd like to keep/create 4 million jobs to get us back on track. At least 2 million would be served by my solution.
Oh, and H1B Visa holders....don't get me started there, start looking for American workers a bit harder before you say, "we gotta hire Indian software eng's because we can't find any here".
In California alone, illegal immigration has proven to be a drain, year after year...and yet we're going to cut police staffing, education, and let criminals out of prison early to cut costs.
CUT OFF THE ILLEGAL ALIENS, IDIOTS!!!!
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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that sounds like vitriolic hate speech to me...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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This would help a bit. But until people decide to put moral integrity above greed our country will decline or disappear.
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Gene
climber
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^unable to articulate a complete thought^
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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porkchop, these are critical issues for our country. I think if we could all sit down and dialogue together we could actually make progress in problem solving.
As long as we continue to take pot shots at one another it will deepen the divide and no solution will be created.
We are all intelligent humans that need to make this place and planet work. We all so need to work together to formulate solutions for these VERY tough times. Lynnie
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Bluering - a friend of mine who runs almond orchards and mixed veggie operations in Tulare had a problem with labor during the last building boom.
His problem?
All of his "illegal" workers left the fields for more lucrative jobs in the construction business.
Since plants won't pick and pack themselves - he looked to "regular Americans" for his labor. He ran close to 100 want ads throughout the Central Valley touting his need for 150 workers and only got 57 replies!!!!!
Less than 30 actually showed up to give it a try. Of that number only 3 stuck it out for the full season!!!
The rest said it was too hot/hard/dusty/dirty and was "Mexican work" and therefore beneath them.
Not enough for you - I've got friends in the restaurant biz that will also fill your ears with stories about how no "real American" wants to wash dishes for a living either.
Since I like eating and appreciate clean dishes - I appreciate ANYONE willing to work the underbelly of this country since few of us spoiled-brat entitlement babies care to soil our precious hands with manual labor.
If we were to somehow remove all illegal immigrants overnight from this country - this place would collapse into chaos within a week.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Lynne- I was referring to my post initially as being sarcastic. While I do agree that we need solutions that will bring us all together, my point, while not necessarily delivered in the most constructive manner, is that a simple statement of fact as the OP to many people on ST would and does constitute "right wing fanaticism" of some sort.
I suppose that is all a matter of perspective, but the bottom line is that the range of opinions is too wide to ever draw a conclusion that everyone will support.
I am curious as to what will happen even though I most likely will not agree with most of it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Next year white folks will be picking beans and will be gratefull for the oportunity.
The "stimulus" package will make sure of that.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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The more I look at this thread - the more pissed it makes me.
Here's a question for you Blue - ever meet an illegal in your life?
I mean really meet one mano-o-mano?
When I was saving up to buy my house, I lived in the slums of Santa Barbara for eight years to cut my expenses in order to stash some cash. By "slums" I mean the part of town where you could count the number of white guys on one hand. Every neighbor of mine was either Southeast Asian or Hispanic and yes, many were illegals.
It was great in a way - I taught them basic English and helped them decipher phone bills and such and they made me tamales and taught me how to cook up a good bowl of pho.
What I learned during those eight years of self-induced poverty was that these were hard working people with dreams of success in the golden land...not for themselves...but for their kids.
They had strong family ties and real family values that would put the Republicans to shame.
They really wanted their kids to learn English and make something of themselves even if was to take a few generations to get there.
Not one of them had any sense of entitlement or belief that they were owed anything by this country.
They still loved their homeland, but also thought that hamburgers and the Dodgers were the coolest things ever.
And for their efforts they were also subjected to living a life of fear and distrust. Fear of capture and deportation and the distrust of people like yourself who blamed these people for our own failures.
Sadly, this is nothing new in America. Every immigrant group from the Irish to the Italians to Gypsies to Jews have endured this small-minded crap from some jerk calling himself a "real American".
Remember this - the ONLY people with the right to call themselves REAL AMERICANS are the redskinned people - if you aren't from the rez - YOU are an immigrant too.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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The economy is taking care of this problem in a big way.
I love the Nationals.
I used to party with them.
They are good people. And a lot of fun.
Bluering, you want to deport the the US Chicanos, and bring in the Nationals.
It would be really hard to rent a apt while washing plates at Denny's, so no thanks to living with 5 people.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I still think that a consensus of clear minded, thoughtful folk that have the US of A fore front and in their best interests could and would come up with a general plan to put this nation back on track. Get rid of Greed should be the VERY FIRST objective. Peace and Grace, Lynnie
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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To sit back and call anyone racist who discusses trying to solve the problem of giving away billions of dollars, each year, to folks who aren't working and shouldn't legally qualify for said handout, is f*#king ignorant and short-sighted. It's the same as when the debate of over-population comes up. There are no easy answers, but something will have to be done, eventually. Just as I can't afford to invite the whole neighborhood over for lunch and dinner every day, without going broke, we cannot sustain feeding those who are not working, generation after generation.
Is this an immigration problem? No. It's a laziness problem. I grew up on a fruit ranch. So I grew up with immigrant workers. I did the same work they did. Picked, pruined, packed, boxed, yadda, yadda. From small kid to adulthood. And I'm certainly the better person for it and have a better work ethic for that. Guys that come here and work their ass off get my respect, for sure. I also believe that they should go through legal channels to get here, no doubt.
However, I do have an issue with all of the lazy f*#ks that are not working, generation after generation. Working the system. Spitting out kids to keep the check coming. "Going to school", yet never really going or making it count to keep from having to get a job. Coming here and setting up drug shops. All while we foot their bills.
On the flip-side, I also have issues with people who hire and pay illegals under the table. It's a two-sided street and the white-man rancher does this out of his own greed. I definitely agree with what Dingus and others have said and don't blame anyone for not wanting to work for a sub-standard wage. As was said - you try renting an aprtment, or even a room on a dishwasher's wage. Forget about trying to feed yourself. Crack down on both sides and it will start to change. Get rid of the deadbeats so that the hard working people can start to get the respect they deserve. Or, keep sitting on your asses and crying "racist" whenever people are at least interested/concerned enough to try to talk about it/a solution. Basically, sit on your ass and get nowhere. I'd rather that you just stfu.
In reality, all the "racist" screamers are doing is showing that they do not have anything prudent to add to the discussion. And, in the end, preventing any *real* discussion from ever happening. Again, no easy answer, but pretending we can keep going at this pace and running things into the ground is certainly not the answer. Grow a set of balls and learn to discuss difficult issues without copping out.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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If it was as simple as giving the jobs from illegal immigrants to citizens, we wouldn't have the problem in the first place. These guys are making the long, dangerous journey here far from their families exactly because there are jobs available.
As was pointed out, this part of the problem is going away right now, as there are fewer jobs.
Sure, you could get more jobs to be taken by citizens by paying more, but that would mean a lot of stuff would cost more. Maybe we'd have more unions as well.
As for H1-B's, I'm pretty sure they are not a drain on society at all. And I'd be only to happy if more money was paid to citizens for programming jobs, but shareholders demand lower IOI, so that means use of cheaper resources. Plus the US is churning out fewer engineer types to begin with. All those math type guys wanted to be hedge fund analysts and managers instead.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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maybe the answer is in the 2004 film A Day Without a Mexican
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:26am PT
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Well, they used to own California, sold it to us for a dime, even though Gold had just been discovered.
So if a few want to come back "home" and get rotten wages for sucky work, so be it.
They have been here since I have been here, so i doubt they re going anywhere.
The real issue is getting Mexico so it does not suck so bad that the people are willing to grovel at these terible jobs, miles from their families.
HeaRD ON npr TODAY that case load for deportation judges is so back logged that they get 1/6 of a clerk, unless you work in SF, you get 1/4 court clerk.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Can't say I blame 'em. Mexico is about an inch away from being a 'failed state.' Juarez had what, like 3000 murders last year?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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Life is never about them and us. Ever. Life is about clearly living out the parameters of the founding fathers. They had foresight and clarity for this country.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 10, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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Juarez is OK now.
There were a couple of cartels battling for turf.
I think the Sinaloa guys won, with Caro Quintero calling the shots from his luxerious jail.
NAME: CARO-QUINTERO, Rafael
FUGITIVE NCIC#: W434766259
WANTED FOR:
The following alleged Federal Drug Violations:
* KIDNAPPING AND MURDER OF A FEDERAL AGENT, violent crimes in aid of racketeering, aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact. Also wanted for: possession with intent to distribute marijuana and cocaine, murder, continuing criminal enterprise.
JURISDICTION: Central District of California
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