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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Leroy Jenkins video, my son turned me onto this, and I didn't think it was funny at all until he explained it to me, now I laugh my ass off every time I see it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU
27,000+ people left comments!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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Jimmy Swaggart and Jerry Lee Lewis?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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"As to healing, If one believes in God then yes, its almost a tautology, he CAN heal anyone any time. But from a theological point of view the question strikes me, why doesn't he heal everyone? Why the discrimination and why the need for prayer from a healer. It seems to me that anyone who is suffering or dying is intrinsically in a state of prayer whether they call it that or not. Is there some formula missing (In the name of Jesus...) or what. "
Yes, We are all Brothers and Sisters and in the image of our creator (not arms and legs, but Spirit and Love)
It's not that we are all being tormented by God until we cry out for healing and then we get it. Obviously doesn't work that way as evidenced by wonderful sincere people who aren't healed.
Pain and adversity can be our teachers, some need that to grow and transform. Additionally, we can bring bad things on ourselves through self-hatred and negative habits, patterns, and thinking.
Some say there is karma from the past as well.
In any case, my observation, and studies have validated this, is that a key to real healing is to REALLY CHANGE yourself. Stop being the person that needs pain to learn, stop being down on yourself, stop negative patterns, have a passion and inspiration to live. If you shift the whole energy in your life, you'll maybe stop being the same person with the problem. You'll automatically find the right church or people to move forward with.
Nice post Pete. Look at the Fruits to know the tree
Peace
Karl
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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religion is the ultimate celebration of man's folly.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 06:46pm PT
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religion is the ultimate celebration of man's folly.
Except on the rare occasion when it is the ultimate acknowledgement of mans folly.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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God may choose or not choose to heal you at any given point in your life. But you can count on the hard cold cruel fact that he (god) will eventually kill you. Apparently he's just like that.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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I always find it interesting that those people who choose not to believe have such a hard time letting those who DO believe discuss their views without butting in and ridiculing. Isn't that type of ideological brow beating the very characteristic that makes so-called "bible thumpers" so unappealing?
That said, faith and proof certainly can coexist unless you are able to prove virtually everything, ergo you are all knowing, which would make you God, and no longer needing faith. For that matter, proof is somewhat of a misnomer in that it can never be absolute proof. If you have absolute proof of your miracle then perhaps, no faith is necessary. If you are capable of absolute understanding of anything then its a good bet you are not human...and round and round it goes.
The bottom line for me is that faith does not need to be demonstrable- it is no one's responsibility to convince anyone to believe or act a given way. Faith is for personal guidance. That is why I am content to share what I believe but not get offended if others choose not to agree. Even among believers there are myriads of interpretations, and none are or ever will be absolutely correct.
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
X
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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I just made a bowl of lucky charms miraculously disappear...they were magically godamned delicious...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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I just made a bowl of lucky charms miraculously disappear...they were magically godamned delicious...
If that's what you had for dinner then maybe you better start pray'in for the loaves and fishes.
Or at least the wine.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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The problematic issue with faith is that many hold the absolute “truth” of their “faith” as a necessary means and dictate for the control of other’s behavior. This is an across the board conduct of the majority of organized religions. In fact, proofs do exist. If you could demonstrate a “miracle” through a repeatable process you would have an ontological proof. Certainly, there are many examples of such proofs in the phenomenological world. Bible thumpers aren’t unappealing simply because they proselytize, they’re unappealing because they predicate their behavior toward others on a hunch. If one’s faith is that another’s beliefs are inferior then that individual becomes inferior as well. This has always been dangerous stuff.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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well i can't speak for others but i dont consider my opinions and ideas superior. i am sure that they differ from the views of many people- for good reason. people come to their own conclusions in their own ways which makes them (or expresses) who they are. Inasmuch as i take my own convictions very seriously, i can say for myself that i do not predicate my treatment of others (regardless of their belief system) on hunches. At the end of the day every person has to shave their own face so to speak.
For what it's worth I agree that organized religion has done plenty to distance others from the very ideals they claim to support. That doesn't detract from what I believe because I consider those wrong doings an unfortunate bi-product of necessary human involvement.
edit: I agree that its problematic to impose your ideals on another person based on your faith since your faith is just that-- yours. The greatest strength of that faith also limits its application.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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"(not arms and legs, but Spirit and Love) "
I beg to differ. :=)
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DJS
Trad climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Don't want to knock this discussion, it's a good one. But I have to counter one statement made.
By the way, for those not in the know, Pentecostalism is the fasted growing religion in the world, mostly in third world countries.)
Islam is in fact the fastest growing religion in the world.
Christianity gains more adherents per day day than Islam, however they also lose more per day than Islam.
This info is even backed up by the World Christian Database.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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"God may choose or not choose to heal you at any given point in your life. But you can count on the hard cold cruel fact that he (god) will eventually kill you. Apparently he's just like that."
I'm not convinced that this world is the best place to stay forever so I'm more concerned with dying nice than not dying. This sack of meat I'm driving around feels heavier all the time.
Miracles would be no proof of God. There are plenty of natural laws we don't know about. Since a religious person would have to assume God is behind natural laws, why would God go against God's nature by breaking them? Even Miracles probably follow some higher octave of natural law.
If you try to stay awake for 3 days, you'll need sleep pretty bad. After 80 years on this planet, most people have so much baggage they need to clear their heads and perhaps come back for another round. (even many early Christians believed in reincarnation and it makes "justice" on this planet a lot easier to comprehend.
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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I have purposely not read most of the posts on this thread.
I don't care what religion you want to follow, just KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, and others who already share your beliefs.
If you try to proselytize your beliefs, I will rise up against you. Do not knock on my door and try to convert me. Do not hang out in public places (like post offices) and try to convert me. Keep your printed material out of public places (i.e little booklets found on benches, newstands, public phones) . Stay out of politics, and do not infuse your agenda into the political process. Stay out of other countries with your missionary efforts (unless you can help other people without trying to convert others to your religion).
If you can do this, we will get along just fine, and I will do all that I can to support your right to believe what you believe.
Isn't this what America was founded on?
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apogee
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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Wow, Skip, your response really gives the impression that a nerve has been struck by my comments. Odd, too, given that they were partially intended to express my support for you or anyone else to follow whatever religious beliefs that you hold. I will even go to bat for you, should anyone try to take that away.
Having said that, I will reiterate that I do not appreciate the efforts of any person or religion to proselytize their beliefs to others, in subtle ways such as printed material left about (this is as obnoxious as the flyers placed under windshields), knocking at my door to discuss religion (with the obvious agenda of conversion), asserting religious beliefs into the political process, etc.
As foundational as the right to free speech is to our country, so is the concept of separation of church and state. Blurring of these lines has directly created &/or contributed to much of the division, hatred, and antagonism that is present in our society.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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"Have you ever been healed by prayer."
I'm not a Pentacostal, and I haven't been healed by prayer, but I've been healed by this guy before:
http://www.youangelyou.com/
Significant improvement from over the phone session, and once it was really dramatic. You can be as skeptical as you like--it doesn't require belief. I had a healthy skepticism until I experienced a dramatic result on my 1st session. I've gone back a few times for other things.
I can't tell you if it's a good idea or not. Only that it works for me.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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Skip-
You're right- only an idiot would expect to have any kind of rational dialogue with you in a thread about Pentecostals. I will leave you to your diatribe. Ta!
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 12, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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"It is my firm conviction that the Christian Church is the hope of the world."
Chodonkeh Johnson Ethiopian Church Planter
Hopelessness is at the root of the vast majority of the worlds ills. False Hope is at the other end of the spectrum and is no less to blame for many people's dispair or unhappiness.
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