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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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John, you mean help from the Dutch, Polish, French, Italians, Germans, the Phillipines, India, Belgium, Japan?
Who's help do we need? They look at us for guidance...look back 2 or 3 years and see how they've reacted.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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LEB, the Job Bush feels hired to do is deliver Iraq to the oil companies. That's why Cheney and the oil guys were pouring over the charts of Iraqi oil fields even before 9-11.
you might think all is fair in politics, that Bush could do anything, since after all, we elected him (another totally debatable issue)
It's reprehensible to think that a guy who was elected via lies and who got us into death, debt and war via lies should be justified by your arguments.
If he can have a false document forged to justify attacking a country that is no threat (that was also proved to be known in advance) who is to say he couldn't also know in advance of the 9-11 attacks. Which hurt this country more, knocking down the towers costing 3000 lives or attacking Iraq costing many thousands more plus a trillion dollars?
Bluering, many more Iraqis have died during this war than during any period under Saddam and over 2 million are homeless refugees. You think we did them a favor but the jury is still far from in on it.
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I second SS' motion - and a motion to adjourn is always in order.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:55am PT
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Here's some stat about how America's world status has fallen under our bogus war.
from
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/25/do2501.xml
"...But who hates Americans the most? You might assume that it's people in countries that the United States has recently attacked or threatened to attack. Americans themselves are clear about who their principal enemies are. Asked by Gallup to name the "greatest enemy" of the United States today, 26 per cent of those polled named Iran, 21 per cent named Iraq and 18 per cent named North Korea. Incidentally, that represents quite a success for George W. Bush's concept of the "Axis of Evil". Six years ago, only 8 per cent named Iran and only 2 per cent North Korea.
Are those feelings of antagonism reciprocated? Up to a point. According to a poll by Gallup's Centre for Muslim Studies, 52 per cent of Iranians have an unfavourable view of the United States. But that figure is down from 63 per cent in 2001. And it's significantly lower than the degree of antipathy towards the United States felt in Jordan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Two thirds of Jordanians and Pakistanis have a negative view of the United States and a staggering 79 per cent of Saudis. Sentiment has also turned hostile in Lebanon, where 59 per cent of people now have an unfavourable opinion of the United States, compared with just 41 per cent a year ago. No fewer than 84 per cent of Lebanese Shiites say they have a very unfavourable view of Uncle Sam.
These figures suggest a paradox in the Muslim world. It's not America's enemies who hate the United States most, it's people in countries that are supposed to be America's friends, if not allies.
The paradox doesn't end there. The Gallup poll (which surveyed 10,000 Muslims in 10 different countries) also revealed that the wealthier and better-educated Muslims are, the more likely they are to be politically radical. So if you ever believed that anti-Western sentiment was an expression of poverty and deprivation, think again. Even more perplexingly, Islamists are more supportive of democracy than Muslim moderates. Those who imagined that the Middle East could be stabilised with a mixture of economic and political reform could not have been more wrong. The richer these people get, the more they favour radical Islamism. And they see democracy as a way of putting the radicals into power.
The paradox of unfriendly allies is not confined to the Middle East. ...
Back in 1999, 83 per cent of British people surveyed by the State Department Office of Research said that they had a favourable opinion of the United States. But by 2006, according to the Pew Global Attitudes Project, that proportion had fallen to 56 per cent. British respondents to the Pew surveys now give higher favourability ratings to Germany (75 per cent) and Japan (69 per cent) than to the United States - a remarkable transformation in attitudes, given the notorious British tendency to look back both nostalgically and unforgivingly to the Second World War. It's also very striking that Britons recently polled by Pew regard the US presence in Iraq as a bigger threat to world peace than Iran or North Korea (a view which is shared by respondents in France, Spain, Russia, India, China and throughout the Middle East).
Nor is Britain the only disillusioned ally. Perhaps not surprisingly, two thirds of Americans believe that their country's foreign policy considers the interests of others. But this view is shared by only 38 per cent of Germans and 19 per cent of Canadians. More than two thirds of Germans surveyed in 2004 believed that American leaders wilfully lied about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction prior to the previous year's invasion, while a remarkable 60 per cent expressed the view that America's true motive was "to control Middle Eastern oil". Nearly half (47 per cent) said it was "to dominate the world".
The truly poignant fact is that when Americans themselves are asked to rate foreign countries, they express the most favourable views of none other than Britain, Germany and Canada..."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"John, you mean help from the Dutch, Polish, French, Italians, Germans, the Phillipines, India, Belgium, Japan?
Who's help do we need?"
If this were a war of powerful nation against powerful nation, then your list would be helpful. But it isn't. This is a war against individual people who are pissed off and live all over the world. Last I checked there were 193 nations in the world.
How did Al Qaeda become so powerful in Afghanistan and how were they allowed to operate?
there is a number of reasons but one is that afghanistan was so destroyed after its war with Russia and needed money, so when Osama Bin Ladin offered them money to allow them to set up camps, they said yes.
We basically abandoned afghanistan after its war with Russia. That was unwise.
....
Bush comes across to the world like a bully. He doesn't want to negotiate. He doesn't seem to be able to work with other nations. If we bully the word, then people will look the other way and not help us. Just look at how that worked in our intelligence community before 9/11. There was inter community rivalries, some of which happened because each agency was egotistical and bullied other agencies. The FBI was notorious for bullying police departments. So much so that lots of police departments didn't want to share info with them. So they didn't. This led in part to a breakdown in intelligence. Intelligence is one aspect of how we will stop terrorist. Treating the rest of the world with respect is another.
We need those countries that terrorist would hide in to want to help us. Not be pissed at us because we bully them.
There is lots of history on this, such as in the thread with the book " Confessions of an economic hitman". Our actions have consequences and terrorism is bringing it home to us. We basically thought we were immune from attack. No country would attack us. 9/11 showed us we aren't. Small groups of terrorist can hurt us and hurt us bad.
This means we can't afford to bully the rest of the world, even small countries for that is where the terrorist will hide as they make their plans.
This isn't a war that can be won with a large army.
This is poorly written, but I am tired and probably not making sense.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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This may come as a surprise to some of you: I don't believe for a moment the the majority of Americans care much about what the rest of the world thinks about us.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Not surprised. But they should and if they don't, we will never stop terrorism.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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started out as a good thread karl-
loisification strikes again.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"This may come as a surprise to some of you: I don't believe for a moment the the majority of Americans care much about what the rest of the world thinks about us. "
Yes well the majority of Americans never leave their country. It's easy to sit in your own house and not give a crap what other people think. It just sucks to be you when you realize that you need help from your neighbors. America only has so long to give the bird to the rest of the world. Sooner or later we aren't going to be the top dog, and when that time comes it would be to our advantage to not have shat in the punchbowl.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Good grief Lois.
Bush and cheney LIED to the the American people, Gutted the constitution and KEPT IT SECRET for years, Expanded the presidents war powers IN SECRET beyond anything ever done before and kept that secret for years, thwarting the checks and balances built into our government BTW, and that's just for starts.
Bush DID feel a sense of power, he DID want to finish what his dad started, LOL, and he did feel justified to do anything it took, even if it broke the laws of our country in ways that were unimaginable even to some of his supporters, who were quickly demoted or shut out of the loop.
You really need to read The Dark Side, although I am sure you will just ignore the revelations in that book just like you do every thing else you don't like.
This Bush gang is criminal.
But wait, there's more! The new findings about the shennanegans at the justice department, to turn a non-political branch of gov into a republican bush bot hot bed is totally illegal.
Now, you say that people are fine with what Bush did, but really, they don;t even know because the information has not been well distributed, and people like you are ignoring what is coming out, but the tide may be turning.
THE very principle that formed this country have been shattered by Bush/Cheney. The crap they have pulled will not be dealt with sufficiently if at all by another republican president. It is time to clean house ans sweep the vermin out, and try to undo serious damage. Bandaids won't help.
For the sake of your country Lois, WAKE UP.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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I agree with SS.
More lime tree discussion is in order.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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You can substitute about a dozen ST names for Mr. Goodman and this reply is still applicable.
"The Paranoid Style
Howard...
Calm down Mr. Goodman, and employ logic rather than the same old, same old Bush/Cheney/oil conspiracy vocabulary.
The reasons for going into Iraq (did you intend casus belli? rather than your nonsensical cassi belli ("absences of war" ?) were spelled out by the Senate and House that passed the authorizations for invasion on October 11-12, 2002.
I suggest you reread them. Yes, the Congress, like the administration, included WMD, but also Saddam's subsidies for terrorists, the presence of variously named terrorists in Baghdad, violations on the U.N. and armistice accords, violation of oil for food, past histories of attacking four neighbors, genocide, attempts to assassinate a former President, and on and on. They are all there.
True, there turned out not to be stockpiles of WMD of the sort that was given up shortly after Saddam's capture by Libya, but the recent discovery of 1 million pounds of yellow-cake in storage in Iraq is significant. The administration erred in showcasing WMD, inasmuch as the Congress in more sober fashion had provided a far more sweeping case to remove Saddam (I suggest you review the moving and powerful speeches of Sens. Clinton, Kerry, Harry Reid (especially), etc. on the need to remove the Husseins).
No one spoke of Iraq as a Jefferson democracy; that is your caricature. But it is presently the only freely voting constitutional government in the region. Why would you not seek to support it rather than in puerile fashion ridicule it?
And Iraq is not, as in its prior 20-year history, attacking either its neighbors or exporting terror abroad. In a post-911 landscape that is why we removed Saddam, and why 75% of the American people supported the invasion — until the costs mounted at which time a majority gradually abandoned their prior solidarity for the effort.
Saddam's Iraq was practicing genocide for years, and killing hundreds of thousands of its own and others across its borders; the transition from that nightmare to the growing quiet we see today does not arrive naturally or without costs. But for the first time in two decades there is hope that Iraqis won't be slaughtered by their own government or be used to do the same to others.
Saddam was not to be boxed in, and that's why the official policy of regime change was passed in the Clinton administration (that bombed Saddam, and, as in the case of the Balkans, did so without either going to the Congress or the U.N.). Our allies either had abandoned, or were going to abandon, the 12-year-old, no-fly zone effort. The Oil-for-Food disaster had both led to starvation and to $50 billion in extortion on the part of the Husseins and corrupt U.N. officials. Given the oil price hikes caused by soaring world demand, we can imagine what Saddam would have done with $130-a-barrel oil — cf. his corrupt sweetheart oil deals with France and Russia as a model to come.
No one is plundering Iraq's oil fields. Such rhetoric is boilerplate, but intellectually misinformed: for the first time in history, Iraqi oil concessions are put out to bid, transparent, critiqued in a free Iraqi press, and the revenues under the auspices of a constitutional government. Would you prefer the old system of Saddam's to the present one?
I have criticized numerous times in print our energy policy, and especially the radical environmentalist agenda that assumes our critical elites, like the rest of us, will consume energy at present voracious levels (cf. the personal consumption habits of critics as diverse as Al Gore, John Edwards, and the Hollywood elite), while demanding that others in more fragile eco-systems from Siberia to the Persian Gulf increase production while we pontificate about "green" energy. In truth, the same emotional and juvenile rants about the war characterize the present debate over Americans evolving to alternate fuels-impossible without a bridge of a decade or so of more oil, coal, nuclear, natural gas, hydro, etc. to ensure that we don't go broke in the process of transformation.
In lieu of an argument, there is always the ad hominem tactic, as you employ like clockwork in your conclusion. Very sad, but very predictable.
VDH"
The ME is well on its way to having its first arab Democracy. An event that will prove transformative. Although,it breaks the pink little hearts that good and peace may be the ultimate outcome.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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re:
The ME is well on its way to having its first arab Democracy. An event that will prove transformative. Although,it breaks the pink little hearts that good and peace may be the ultimate outcome.
what a f*#king tool you are!
regurgitating the prewar BS now?
can i get a-
"the surge has worked"
"we're winning the war!"
hey genius, we are not even fighting a war!
re:
"True, there turned out not to be stockpiles of WMD of the sort that was given up shortly after Saddam's capture by Libya, but the recent discovery of 1 million pounds of yellow-cake in storage in Iraq is significant"
HUH?
yeah, nice try, not so much...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
try READING CAREFULLY rather than just posting a liar's rant that you take no responsibility for- what a complete joke you are- you just eat that crap up don'tchya?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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lowest, put a cork in it
and the rest of you, for craps sake just ignore it and it will go away, scratch it and it's like poison oak or bug bites, never leaves you alone.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Americans, on the whole, don't much care for what the world thinks because they've learned from hard lessons--particularly from Western Europe--not to trust them. Western Europe puts its self interest first, second and third and wants us to follow along, defer to them, protect them and then bail them out when things go bad.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Lois, I strongly recommend that you not wait for the audio version. Just go buy the thing and read it the old fashioned way.
That goes for everyone else too.
It is not easy reading, but your jaw will be hitting the floor.
I have read about 100 pages so far, and I just cannot believe what was done.
Neither could many members of the Bush administration, who were kept out of the inner circle even when they had supervision over the people writing the quasi-legal underpinning for the actions taken.
It was too much even for the likes of Ashcroft, who was not considered worthy (read not loyal enough to Bush and not ideologically pure enough) to know the true nature and details of the dirtiest job ever pulled on America.
Read the book.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I'm just curious... Where's the proof to support the claim? Just because someone writes this in a book doesn't make it so. I think Shrub is scum too. I think this, as well as many other things are probably true and that he should not only be impeached, but prosecuted to the full extent... But, just asking, as there's been nothing that's come up to support the author's claims.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Americans, on the whole, don't much care for what the world thinks because they've learned from hard lessons--particularly from Western Europe--not to trust them. Western Europe puts its self interest first, second and third and wants us to follow along, defer to them, protect them and then bail them out when things go bad. "
Woody the US pretty much acts in its own interest every step of the way and tells other countries to ride a pole if they won't play along. Which altruistic policies are you upset that western European countries have eschewed exactly? We had the opportunity to have them all by our side in nearly lock step after 9/11 and then Bush basically told them they were irrelevant and that we could do whatever we wanted without them.
What is hilarious is that you perfectly articulated our Iraq/Afghanistan policy. Act out of self-interest and then beg for help when things go bad.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Matt,
re:
"True, there turned out not to be stockpiles of WMD of the sort that was given up shortly after Saddam's capture by Libya, but the recent discovery of 1 million pounds of yellow-cake in storage in Iraq is significant"
HUH?
yeah, nice try, not so much...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
try READING CAREFULLY rather than just posting a liar's rant that you take no responsibility for- what a complete joke you are- you just eat that crap up don'tchya?
550 metric tons is OVER 1 million pounds.
Thats a lot of yellow cake.
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