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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:16pm PT
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It's a water knot so if I tied it without a tail running back through it would be impossible to untie. [the tail doesn't go back through until it's looped through the swivel for the second time. Other wise you'd be undoing the knot [unlike with the figure8)]
The first and last time I can recall taking the pigs off line where the time they went for the ride.
I'm not 100% sold on this new idea - but it's worth a shot. I've a fair amount of respect for Coiler (don't go there, please), so his idea is certainly worth the look.
David - a very related question. Exactly the direction i'm hoping this thread takes. In the last photo posted you can see a blue 6mm tied to the red tab. I use this to tie in the bags (backed up of course). I use a muenter-mule to tie it in then lower it out. I'd think the problem you'd run in to with the diasy is it's length. The 6mm cord is long enough to lower it out tens of feet. How do you accomplish that with your system?
Edit: per yo below. The red tab is a 1" piece of tube webbing. It's bar tacked like mad into the side. It's just another idea I'm toying with. Like I sorta ask above, what is the red tab for (Deuce?)?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:19pm PT
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Woof!
I've been trying to google this knot with no luck at all. Tried bridal (as in chicks) and bridle (neeeeeeigh!) and there is a bridle knot that kite people use but it didn't seem to be the same one. Whatever.
I'm guessing all of us will keep using biners until our bags go for a ride, then we'll switch over.
What's that red tab the lower-out goes to? Is that burly? I like to have the lower out into the main biner (the main load-bearing point) so as to have the bag muentered into the anchor (backed up, of course, with the haul line.) Then you can lower that bitch off the anchor with ease. (Is this the same as Pete's load release knot or whatever? Because I've never checked that out.) Nothing's stupider than having to lift a full bag off the anchor yourself.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:23pm PT
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So yeah, David, I guess I swear by the load release. As soon as the haul line comes tight on the bag you lower away. So nice. And then realize the haul line is wrapped around your leg. Doh!
Water knot? Isn't that an overhand? So this is an overhand bight with a tail pulled through somehow?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:27pm PT
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yeah, the water knot is an overhand except it threads "backwards" if you will. It's the same knot you tie webbing together with - slightly different results than you'd get from an overhand on a bite.
And no, it's not an overhand bite with a tail pulled.
Lemme see if I can explain w/o picts.
The rope that makes up the entire knot is about a 15 foot piece of static.
First I tie a single overhand mid way (or so) in the rope.
I then pass one end through one loop of the haulbag and then through the swivel hole. I then finish tieing the water knot - the tails stick out the opposite end.
I've modified coilers idea (I think) by taking one tail (the one pointing up) and passed it again through the swivel first then through the haul bag loop and finally pass it through the middle of the water knot. This makes it so that the ends point down. On each end I tie an overhand loop to clip gear/ledge to.
Make sense or would photos help?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:28pm PT
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"I'd think the problem you'd run in to with the diasy is it's length. The 6mm cord is long enough to lower it out tens of feet. How do you accomplish that with your system? "
I just let it fly. Nah...just kidding. I usually bring along a 6/7mil lowerout line as well, I just haven't been using it to anchor the bag but I guess it's silly not to. It would mean one less component in the system.
Actually it was Chris that had me using an adjustable daisy on my last wall climb but I don't think we ever needed to lower out on the Trip.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
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the 6/7 mm cord is the lower out line.
I bring the bag up to the station.
I get it as close to the pully as possible without jamming it. I take my lower out cord, tie a meunter to a biner to the side of pully. I then finish that knot with a mule.
I then unweight the pully slowly (and it always takes more thinking than i'd imagine).
I've now got the bag on the meunter-mule. When it's time to haul we set the haul rig, pull up the slack through the set tri-pro. I then untie the mule and lower the bag onto the haul tension/line with the meunter. It's a long 6mm cord so as I said, I could lower it out tens of feet (or more if I chose to rig a longer cord).
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:41pm PT
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nature ..
.. i can see why you'd be looking to eliminate biners from your setup .. since your bag took a 200' freefall which by some grace of god didn't kill anyone in your party ..
.. but tying the bag directly to the rope is going to be a PITA .. specially if soloing .. (i remove the bag from the haul line at every station -- and then retie it in short, and use the extra to lower out) ..
.. i've got some comments -- though take them with a grain of salt . (i'll describe my setup which i think works pretty well) -- we have the same bag by the way ..
1 - tie a knot in one of the suspension arms of your bag .. so its shorter than the other .. and then attach a 7mm cord to the suspension point of the shorter arm. the 7mm cord you can use to do a load-release knot to a locking carabiner that contains several things ..
a) the 7mm cord from the shorter arm (load-release knot)
b) the other suspension arm
c) the swivel
d) the docking tether (the docking tether belongs at the bottom of the swivel, so you can tie/untie the hauling rope while the bag is on the anchor)
e) a regular non-locking biner (which later becomes a mexican-locker) -- more about this below
this makes it so you can open/close the bag while its hanging on the wall without having to lift the bag. -- (or even open/close the carabiner) -- you can then duct tape the locking biner if you are paranoid that it might come open.
2 - the top of the swivel attach another locking biner (use a spin-ball type if you think they might come open) -- to this biner only 1 thing gets attached. The hauling line.
3 - the extra carabiner that you attached to the bottom swivel locker can hold all your clusterf*#k lines (the lines that hold sh#t outside the bag). you should definately not tie things to the bottom of the bag if you are going to need them everyday. its a pain to get to the bottom of the bag for me.
the clustef*#k lines should all be about the same length, otherwise they will just twist around each other, and hang just below the bottom of the bag. -- i use several of these lines (i use 7mm cord -- but anythign will really do)
a) food bucket
b) poop tube
c) trash (water bottles + trash bag)
d) portaledge
the reason its a mexican locker -- is because after you put the lines into the carabiner, you use duct tape to make sure it doesn't come open.
.. Anyways -- i hope i was able to describe this well .. none of these ideas are mine .. pete setup my bag on my first wall, and this has worked well.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:45pm PT
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You described it well enough. Cool, and thanks. I get what you are doing and typically when I'm in control of the bags I do something very similar (or use to?).
So can you explain to me this "better" rope protector he describes? instead of the waterbottle?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:46pm PT
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Everything in this thread was making perfect sense to me until I read Ricardo's. Got a photo for the visual thinkers?
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:50pm PT
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.. i think pete's better knot protector is a funnel that he bought at a car-parts store .. (large funnel) ..
.. i wish i could take a picture of my setup .. but i'm at work right now ..
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:52pm PT
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Would someone mind hunting down coiler and asking him to show you this knot? It's cool if not but I'm now more confused (though still as confident) with (in) this knot.
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Ouch!
climber
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Feb 10, 2005 - 03:55pm PT
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Bridle knot, bosil, hackamore, etc. is a complicated series of knots used to break young colts and also broncs with tough mouths. Puts pressure on nose, under the jaw, and back of head.
This is a Bridal knot.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 04:12pm PT
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I'm not claiming to have a clue if the name of this knot is "correct". I've no idea where it came from or how/who named it. For all I know it started with Coiler.
take 47
this is the simplified version and probably all that coiler showed me.
Maybe the idea was to simply thread the loop through the swivel then the bag loop and simply tie and overhand. This would accomplish getting both ends to point down. And I suppose it makes it nothing more than the european death knot - BOMBER!!!
And ah yes, ricardo... an oil funnel - awesome! Done deal! But now it seems I could flip the swivel to accomodate more bags/ropes/biners, etc. on the lower part of the pully.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 10, 2005 - 04:38pm PT
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so back to the original post...
are you going to tell us what happened when you lost your haul bags at the Hollow Flake? That sounds epic!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 05:03pm PT
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I've told that story. What? Were you out ice climbing taking shots to the mellon or something?
I suppose since it it started this thread I'll repaste it here.
How about a haul bag that takes a 200 footer after the pigs come unclipped from the main haul biner and they don't deck! If it wasn't for the fact that I was doing the hauling (and thus didn't clip/pack/manage the bags) I can tell this story with little attachment. It wasn't me, man.
I won't disclose names or places but lets just say it was about 15 pitches up the west side of el cap.
It was a bit of an emotional journey. We all didn't quite see eye-to-eye on how to climb a bigwall. Let's just say there are some folks that should not be on bigwalls. Anyway, enough political BS probably lead to some oversight on LOCKING the f*#king biner on the haul bags. I've since gone to consider Coilers rig of tying everything in with his special rig he showed me after the fact - the bridal.
So I'm hauling the second set of pigs. Next thing I know I'm flying backwards until I hit the end of my daisy's. The pigs had cut loose. I survey the situation and realize they were still attached to the lowerout line. OH MY! I had help counter weighting so I scream to "Joe" to "rap immediately and help". He does, gets to "Jim" who was basically HOLDING the end of the tag line with said bags attached. They clipped that in first.
What we figured happened was when the pigs got stuck "Jim" yanked on the lowerout to get them loose. They got loose all right - to the tune of a full rope whipper. Burned hands (i'll dig that pict out) and torched daisies managed to cause enough friction to stop the line about 5 feet short of sending the whole rig to the ground.
I decided the best course of action was to inspect the bags before bringing them up. I wrapped 200 feet into space (in full on freaked out mode scared sheitless) and determined the haul to be OK. The entire unit was clipped in with one straight gate spirit (now retired). We brought up the bags and decided it was time to retreat. No sense in wrapping off with bags full of beer so we had a party - we drank the 7 liter keg of grolsch.. "Jim's" hands were fine after a tape job. Here again, no whining. He managed and within a week was back on the rock. It was freaky but the end result was it was preventable. Obviously the haul biner wasn't locked but how it unclipped from the rig while fully weighted still puzzles me.
We told the story in the meadow afterwards but I don't think it's been repeated much since. Perhaps instead of Joe and Jim it should be Larry, Moe and Doug ;-). Curly was smart enough to bail earlier that day.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 10, 2005 - 05:16pm PT
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whoa...crazy, I must have missed that story. glad you are ok and everything.
so he managed to hold a 200 ft haulbag whipper onto a lower out line with his bare hands. that's phenomenal!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 05:26pm PT
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I think his daisies did most of the work - one was torched. I've never seen anything like it and don't plan on seeing it again.
And the bag probably went a bit more than 200 feet. It had been hauled about 30 feet. That green line pictured is now fixed on pitch two of the heart ledge jugs (thanks to ricardo - or maybe it's the first pitch).
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Feb 10, 2005 - 05:32pm PT
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That floor photo cleared up all my confusion. I may actually try that knot.
Beta, beta, beta...
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 10, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
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the green rope is probably not there anymore (or i'd hope not there anymore) .. we fixed it on the 3rd set of fixed lines up to the heart .. (right where we almost had a different type of accident -- haul related though) ..
.. that was one crazy week in may -- all sorts of people going up and down the heart lines ...
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2005 - 06:52pm PT
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Yeah, we decided to get on the Salathe and not the Nose simply to avoid the traffic. I suppose another dozen parites decided the same (not including folks like Mica who were working on Freeing the route). Yeah, it was sorta nuts to be around all those people.
9 months later and those ropes should be gone, huh? Is that traffic that "bad"?
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