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ahad aham
Trad climber
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come on Fattrad,
What will be the outcome if Israel takes action? 3 to 4 Billion a year in military aid makes us partners in crime.
tig ,
i very much agree with your poker analogy, yet the NYtimes is saying this report was a concencus of all 16 US spy agencys. of course we can't allways trust Judith Miller...er i mean nytimes
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The poker analogy is bogus in this respect. When congress gave Bush the authority to use force on Iraq, they thought it was empowering him to play poker with Iraq. They really didn't intend him to use it to invade the place when inspectors weren't finding anything and there was no evidence of intent to strike the US in any way. Bush was playing poker with congress and the people and we lost.
So I cry BS at playing poker with Iran now. Fool me once...
Fatty writes
"The very statements that Ahmadinejad makes relating to the destruction of Israel would be just cause for premptive action."
More BS. First Ahmadinedjad is not the leader of Iran anymore than the queen is ruler of England, as you certainly know. Second, his comments about Israel, although fairly harsh, have been mistranslated and misinterpreted.
They fall far below your own comments on Supertopo about who should be bombed and invaded.
Iran has invaded no-one and all 16 of our intel agencies have come out and said they haven't worked on a bomb since 2003. Why say that? Maybe they are afraid that the wackos in the administration are bent on another unjust ruinous war that would screw our own military and our economy.
Anybody who would call for the bombing of Iran at this point is a criminal in my mind. There are two sides to violence. It boggles my mind that folks who have acted violently want to act in further violence against other countries based on the idea that those countries might someday be violent.
Shame
Karl
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"3 to 4 Billion a year in military aid makes us partners in crime"
worth also pointing out that much of this comes back to private concerns as weapons orders, so really we are subsidizing the multinational arms brokers and arming them in the process, while also NOT funding schools, hospitals, bridges, etc over here with this HUGE chunk of money.
Your taxes at work.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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fatty wrote - "The very statements that Ahmadinejad makes relating to the destruction of Israel would be just cause for premptive action."
Here's exactly what Mr. Ahmadinejad said:
"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."
Translated:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)
Western media rather purposefully chose to interpret his words to mean something far more sinister than what he actually intended: a common sentiment among Muslims calling for regime change, not war.
An yet this misinterpretation has been used by Zionists as a primary reason for preemptive strike. Misquoting Muslim leaders continues to be used by neoconservatives in their push declare war on Iran.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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fatty- "Many of you would have believed Hitler when he said he was satisfied with what Chamberlain handed over, how naive."
See Godwin's Law.
And please don't patronize me.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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fatty's morals 101:
for him to openly advocate for years and years in favor of preemptive war w/ iran, syria and saudi arabia is acceptable.
for iran to openly state that regime change in israel is their preference is sufficient grounds for nook-ya-lear (as gW likes to say) war.
must be nice to have your cake and eat it too.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Actually fatty, if you had the courtesy to read the links we post, as I'm sure you expect yourself (judging from your endless barrage [spam?] of links) you might see that Mike Godwin is a free speech advocate (not a pacifist to my knowledge) who was concerned that "overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact." It seems that you, of all people, should be sensitive to this.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2007 - 02:00pm PT
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yeah fatty-
and a bunch of jews in fighter jets blowing up the entire iranian nuk program will hardly register as a blip on the AQ recruitment graph...
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"Calling for "regime change" in Israel means replacing a "Jewish state"
how about with a democracy.
so what's it going to be Fattrad, a Jewish state or a democracy.
as far as translations google MEMRI if you havn't already. the whole thing is sick
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"I'm a "if the shoe fits" kind of person. Israel handed over Gaza and got nothing in return, except daily rocket attacks. I don't even bother posting those links, sounds a little reminiscent of Chamberlain."
they handed over gaza and turned it into a prison. who controls the borders Fattrad? they got something in return - they got hamas
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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fattrad,
how about one democratic state?
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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I used to work with a girl from Palestine. She had an MIT phd. Working with her destroyed the ridiculous stereotypes I had read from the heavily pro-Israel media.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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Fatty,
I find it faintly (very faintly) amusing that you advise others to "read Bernard Lewis", given your chronic misrepresentation of Islamic history.
Lewis' analysis of the current problems besetting many Muslim mid-east nations is fairly compelling and worth reading by anyone wanting a better understanding of the many currents affecting these societies.
His analysis stands in rather stark contrast to your views, I would suggest.
Maybe you should invest a little time reviewing "What Went Wrong" and then consider some of the inflamatory, if not overtly racist nonsense you have spewed on this site recently.
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dirtbag
climber
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"I used to work with a girl from Palestine. She had an MIT phd. Working with her destroyed the ridiculous stereotypes I had read from the heavily pro-Israel media."
I had a similar experience and a similar change in outlook.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Wait a second. Did Fatty just tell us we should believe the Moussad's propoganda? Fatty do you really believe that Israel, and especially their own intelligence service, is interested in an honest look at this as opposed to forwarding their own interest?
The reality is that nukes have nothing to do with this, they are just a convenient excuse JUST LIKE WMD's and connections to terrorists were the excuse in Iraq. Fatty's interest in blowing up the middle east are ideological and not practical, and he will forward anything and everything that leads to that end.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Furthermore, seeing that nobody seems to have touched on it, Bush has been requiring that Iran do something that he already KNEW that they had done before we even TALKED to them. We better damn well start talking to them NOW after he's been caught in such a ridiculously bald-faced lie.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"It is a democratic state right now, several members of parliament are Muslim, as is one member of the cabinet. The nation would cease to be democratic if refugees were allowed to return, a non-starter. Any other democracies in the ME? No."
This is pretty much the paradox that is Israel. It wants the land (water resources, ag, security, the biblical eretz israel stuff). just doesn't want the idigenous population that comes with it for demographically it will then cease to be a Jewish state. Olmert recognizes this, hence his statement last week. The occupied territories are, for Israel, a temporary fix of this dilema as it can continue to front it's status as a democracy without recognizing all it's peoples.
As for the egyptian borders, the direction most palestinians would chose to go would be to their historical lands and onetime livelyhoods ie that which is now Israel. It must be remembered that said borders are not so porous particularly when Egypt is receipient of so much US foriegn aid ( I believe second to Israel).
What can Israel do? Some like Avigdor Lieberman, minister of strategic affairs and deputy prime minister, have openly advocated for population transfer of the palestinians. Perhaps PM Begin wasn't so far from the truth when he quiped "treat them like dogs... they'll eventually go away".
They haven't
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Israel should do exactly what South Africa did 1994. End Apartheid.
Fatty, if Israel has refused to give the three million Palestinians living within its borders the right to vote, how is this Democracy?
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dirtbag
climber
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"Most recently witnessed in Sudan. "
Many accounts characterize it as a political clash, not a cultural one.
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