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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Seneca always feels stiff because most of it is so vertical, and of course there is the very common falling rock, wasps, briars and whatnot. The only non-ice place I've actually wanted a helmet. (Still haven't used one, though.)
At Carderock the traditional top end of the scale was always 5.10, and many were the moans and protests from the visiting hardmen on routes now conceded to be considerably harder.
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Salamanizer
Mountain climber
Vacaville Ca,
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If you ask around, you'll find that "everywhere" is sandbagged John...
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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The second pitch of Reed's is 5.7ish...
So it ought to be a good climb for a 5.8 leader?
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Granite Mountain is the ONLY truly sandbagged area I've ever climbed at.
The real issue is all the FEATHERBAGGED areas. Thats where the perception of sandbagging comes from, usually.
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Any area that was climbed at when the top of the scale was 5.9 or 5.10. For example The Gunks, Granite Mountain, Devils Lake WI
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rick d
Social climber
tucson, az
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having learned to climb at Carderock, and done 3 summers at Seneca, AND having done 50+% of the routes at Granite Mountain-
the hardest climbing is at the reef.
intimidating red wall and the site of 2 deaths and numerous accidents
agent orange, terrifying 600' exposure- on the second pitch of the wall
cheap shot, I could not figure out how to do this
ways, where the hell is the R there Steiger
cream of belay, obvious
shanashee, 7-8 5.9 moves as you move out off bolt #2, with the crux splashed in
treebeard, "stemming on hollow flakes the size of volkswagons"-J Waugh
snow arch, the bonzai tree
honorable mention:
face routes at Pinnacle Peak- if your not used to it they suck.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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'The Needles of South Dakota - you better be climbing two number grades harder than the routes you do there.'
Naw, there just a little run out at times.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The ratings at Granite Mountain seemed pretty stiff the one time I was there. I don't think the people who did the first ascents of those routes had done much besides first ascents so they had to guess at ratings and just played it conservatively.
Underrating doesn't mean this group is better than that group. It means an area has a tendency to rate things with little precision or accuracy relative to accepted norms. Or, in the case of Joshua and others, you just knock a point of letter off the actual grade just for good measure. Double Cross at 5.7, Leader's Fright at 5.8, and Waterchute at 5.9 are all examples of old time "stiff" ratings.
JL
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jstan
climber
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After forty years I have finally figured out why we keep arguing this. It is because it is a little more fun than all the other old arguments.
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clustiere
Trad climber
Rock Ridge/ Oakland CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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Granite Mtn AZ
Gunks- NY
Adirondacks- NY
Seneca ??
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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Some places, like, Granite mtn, have high standards on some routes.
some places like Devil's Lake are truley sandbagged ( "naive, or ignorant on the bird scale™)
other places are idiosyncratic;
Rifle,
&
"Vedauwoo isn't sandbagged. Its just really hard to climb there..."
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:40am PT
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Most areas stop feeling sandbagged after you climb there for awhile- like Jailhouse Lucho. That being said, I sure did like to complain about stiff grades when I was barely eeking my way up 5.9 in Index.
There's the classic article that Bridwell wrote where he introduced the YDS. "Innocent, Ignorant, and Insecure" describes the three reasons for sandbagged grades. Good article.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:48am PT
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"The second pitch of Reed's is 5.7ish...
So it ought to be a good climb for a 5.8 leader? "
Maybe a leader you are out to hurt... If you stick a 5.7 leader on Reed's, you're asking for trouble.
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Misha
Trad climber
Woodside, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 03:57am PT
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Eastern Sierra Class 4 routes put up between 1920s and 1940s.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Oct 10, 2007 - 04:46am PT
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Ragged Mt, CT
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cowpoke
climber
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Oct 10, 2007 - 08:28am PT
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I've always thought of "sandbagging" as a purposeful attempt at deceptively undergrading (something about the intentions of the first ascent party). On the other hand, "hard for the grade" implies something about the rock rather than the first ascent party.
By these standards, I've never been to an entire area that is sandbagged (as someone else mentioned, for example, Vedauwoo climbs are, on average, hard for the grade but I've never felt sandbagged there). That said, I've wondered about first ascent party motives when a climb feels dramatically undergraded for the area, although "wondering" about motives and knowing are pretty different.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 10, 2007 - 10:25am PT
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Rock routes in Alberta used to be quite undergraded. The people putting up 5.9's in the 70's would go to Yosemite and procede to climb 5.10. Gradings have been fixed now for the most part.
A couple of years ago one of the 70's local hard men failed on a route he put up in 1975 and graded 5.7. Talk about sandbagging yourself!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 10, 2007 - 10:42am PT
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I hear the levees in New Orleans were quite heavily sand bagged.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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The Gunks, NY (disclaimer: did not read whole thread. it's probably mentioned)
Let us know!