Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Didn't Bush set the execution record as governor? ...152 ?
Everybody had a super fair trial too ?
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Fatty,
And that justified your "creativity" because...?
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
No idea...can't figure out if that thing is fo' real.
|
|
Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
|
|
52 executions.
Know who handed him the files and gave the synopsis? Karl Rove.
We had a mass-murderer selected for us.
But watch out for Hillary. She wants to start WW3. (Bomb/invade Iran)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
No
Bush is not the torturer.
We are ....
We create the world we live in.
According to our collective consciousness as a whole we get what we deserve.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
thanks LEB...
Problem with KSM is that this was all "post" 9/11. Get it? outsidethebeltway, kind of like Little Green Footballs, eh?
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
Khalil Sheik Mohammed (sic)-see upthread
Little Green Footballs-haters?... judge for yerself...check the "comments" for a clearer picture.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
Some furrin' policy, eh?
I hate both parties, give me some advice...
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
Well, let's see, McCain, who is actually in a position to know about abuse of prisoners, unlike all the military service avoiding neo-cons and windbags, thinks it's a bad idea. That's good enough for me.
And there are studies that say it is not particularly effective.
http://psysr.org/tortureseminar.htm
http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000847.html
And there were techniques mentioned beyond slapping. Waterboarding, standing for long periods of time, and exposure to extremes of hot and cold. Those are cruel and inhumane, and in my book torture.
And damn, Woody, I hope that line about the Gestapo was a troll. Those thugs may have been good at certain things, but none of them are things that I would be happy about my country doing.
|
|
ahad aham
Trad climber
|
|
"Didn't Bush set the execution record as governor? ...152 ? "
a good and often overlooked fact. long before 911 and the so called war on terror. gov. bush .....the power over life or death...always chooses the latter.... makes him feel good
afganistan, Iraq, green light to sharon, Jennin, Rafa, Gaza, green light to Kadima, Lebenon again, hang Saddam....back to his governor's roots.
the neocons have found the perfect host
George W. Bush - the penultimate seriel killer
he's jonsing now - needs a fix
Iran - he's got to do it...and he'll feel good... for awhile
pity the children
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
It's all smoke and mirrors. In 1984 is Goldstein's theory on Oligarchical Collectivism. It's been the Republican game plan since the days of Ronnie Raygun.
It's an interesting read. Search for collectivism and you should find it.
http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_p_2
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
This thread is torturing me.
Bush and Co have put America on a very slippery slope in a number of areas.
For all of you who can't see that, I pity you.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
When I awoke this morning my hands were shaking uncontrollably – because I have not posted to a political thread for a long time.
The line in Master and Commander, “You have to choose the lesser of two weavils” pretty well describes a voter’s task. The task is not pretty, but how many things are?
Above and beyond what a candidate promises you have to ask what was delivered.
Is the Taliban still no longer able to effect control over the population in Afghanistan?
Is Al Qaeda weaker or stronger than it was before Iraq?
Does the falling value of the dollar affect US security?
Do you know what your bank is doing? Has it failed yet?
Does the US test the beef you eat for Mad Cow? Or does it oppose that testing?
Has the US worked aggressively to prevent dirty bonbs or other weapons coming into the US via container ships? Or has it opposed inspections? Anyway the new law says we will have inspections in something like seven years, unless someone says it takes longer.
Now that the US has dropped from 50% of China’s export market to something like 30% do we expect them to continue buying the debt that keeps our economy going? And they will be pleased to accept the losses on those investments arrising from the falling dollar?
Is the world made more secure when we refuse to negotiate in preference to talking about military action? At the same time we can’t maintain forces adequate for the wars we already have?
How would you feel if China had the most nukular weapons and talks only of military action? Would you feel secure?
Does the UK’s impending exit from the wars worry you?
Are we spreading democracy when our mercenaries operate entirely outside of our military command?
Never mind this torture sh#t. We are US citizens so we will never get rendered to Cuba be slapped and denied all due process. No problem for us. Eventually a few people in the US will get so fed up with this they will resort to bombs. That’s no problem. Hussein showed how to deal with them. Put them in metal boxes and push stakes through them. We have only to get enough boxes because there will be lots more bombs. Will be hard to tell who is innocent and who is guilty. This will be a problem only if it somehow decreases the 500 million dollar bonus some CEO hoped to get.
Now that’s a problem!
Here’s a hypothesis. The turning point in US military power and US influence in the world will be signalled when Israel takes a public posture opposing the US in some significant way. That event will indicate we are on the final slide to the bottom.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Nice posts Dingus, Jstan and others
Here's what worries me. The criminal clowns who gave us torture, war based on lies, lack of due process and other civil rights (and God knows what else)....
These guys still have a year in office. If a new administration ever truly opened the books on them, they'd be off to jail.
Any expect they'll go quietly and submit to an investigation and rule of law?
NEVER!
So that leaves us two possibilities. Either
1. The political system is so ruled by the power money and elite that even a fully Democratic administration and congresss will be controlled and directed to continue with a slightly improved status quo and let the past be behind us. The current criminals will know the deal and go quietly.
or
2. The new Iran war and/or renewed terrorism and/or a cooked election will be used to keep the bad guys or their designee (Thompson or Rudy, I'd suspect) in power.
It's one thing if the GOP wins fair and square but I'd beware that we've already lost a lot more democracy than we suspect.
Note: the vast majority of Senate seats up for grabs in 2008 are held now by the GOP. They have little hope of retaking the senate. The cowardice of our present congress gives me little hope that this fact will change anything
peace
Karl
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
Radical saved me the time; he's pretty much correct: most, or maybe all, would resort to torture in certain discrete circumstances: the life of a child, especially one of our own. There might be a sub one percent of the population that wouldn't. I'm willing to admit it because I am a hard nosed realist when examining my own psyche. I would also use torture to attempt to obviate a terrorist attack upon the innocent. When fighting against an enemy that ignores all rules of conflict and wants to kill thousands or even millions if possible, the rules go out the window. There are those who claim that my sentiments place us on a level with the terrorists. Nonsense! They want mass death and mass destruction, they want anarchy and collapse of the Western way of life. In fighting these nihilists, we are trying to stop the destruction. They want it; those fighting them want to stop it. There is no moral balance here.
Further, if you believe for a moment that a President of the US, be it Dem or Rep, when finding themselves in a WMD squeeze where thousands or tens of thousands of lives are at stake wouldn't resort to torture if he or she felt it necessary to stop the attack, you live in a fantasy world.
We can debate when, where, and the how of it forever; and those debates would be reasonable; but to say never under any circumstances places you in the category of lier, fool or lunatic.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
|
This administration is so damned secretive, and so utterly opposed to judicial review. The closer we look, the more sh#t we find. Every week we learn about something new, noxious, and illegal, especially stuff coming from that scumbag Alberto Gonzalez.
I would not be surprised if even more heinous methods of torture being sanctioned by this administration are eventually uncovered.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
I think a lot of people are going to be surprised and quite upset when the next administration takes control of the government. If it is the Democrats, once in power and the politicking is over, they will assess the international situation from the standpoint of, first, domestic security. They will do what they think necessary to stop terrorist attacks within the US; and much of what they'll do will be anathema to the left. The Dem administration will be sure of one incontrovertible fact: a successful attack on the US, particularly a massive one, will result in the Dems suffering significant political damage and loss of credibility. This is not a defense of the Bush administration; they have been, in many ways, incompetent and clumsy. However, unless you suffer from terminal BDS, we haven't been hit again; and unless we are before the next election, the Dems would have to do all in their power to see that we weren't during their term in office.
Now back to my previous post. My using a child as an example is quite appropriate because it places the airy, theoretical and academic discussion of torture in the most terrible concrete. If you try to avoid testing yourself against this situation, then you're an intellectual coward. For most of us, this test would place us on the side of torture in this most uncomfortable circumstance so some will denigrate it or run away with it.
I have no doubt that the majority of us would qualify as torturers under some circumstances. So the issue is still at what point would we do it? I've made my position clear; but, obviously, some here are afraid to deal with the reality and skip away.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
This is probably one of the most difficult tests a human faces. That of having their child in danger. I helped my sister raise two boys. It would be very difficult to follow what I believe, but whether you believe me or not, I believe in Karma. I believe that we reap what we sow and I believe that vengence is God's. Therefore, even if my child was in danger I would not condone torture. At some point someone has to be the stronger person to break the chain of violence on this planet. If we use the same tactics as our enemies, then we are no better then they are and we have no moral authority to stand on.
Woody, you say they want to wipe out our beliefs. Have you looked to what extreme you would go to wipe out theirs? Can you not see that we look the same to them as you think they look? Have you looked at Jstans questions? These are important questions.
I asked you a question earlier Woody. I asked you if it was okay if other countries tortured our soldiers to protect themselvs. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and was not a danger to us. We invaded them and have killed thousands and thousands of them. If they capture one of our soldiers, is it okay for them to use torture to gain information?
I say that we all need to be very careful where we place ourselves on the moral superiority scales and how we treat others. We will reap what we sow.
Our current leadership is as extreme as it is to help reflect what is in the deepest recesses of our collective consciousness. The roots of evil exist there as we have become greedy and prideful. Unless we change, this world will see more and more war. Perhaps a world war.
Think about it. Is greed and pride worth a world war? Is vengence worth a world war? Look at the lessons of the middle east. They believe in vengence and they have continued violence. At some point someone has to see that violence only begets more violence. We need to break this chain.
Shalom. The peace that passes understanding is not achieved through violence. Contemplate what it means to have real peace.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!