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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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Proof?
And I don't mean anecdotal "in my days as a deputy" type stuff either.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Torture?
Are you sure?
Those ass-holes look to good to have been tortured.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana
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He mentally tortures my everytime he speaks? (for the record, Kerry did too..I'm an equal opportunity hater!)
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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Chaz, slapping and near drowning = torture.
Let's not pretend it's not.
Oh yeah, and what they were doing was also ILLEGAL.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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OK, I'm definitely against the crap the Bush adminsitration has done. And am definitely against torture. If nothing else, I am certainly against someone holding everyone else to a higher standard than themselves. However, slapping someone's head is torture? Since when? You sure you want that to be the case? I'd be willing to bet most people's parents here tortured them then. And what about when a significant other slaps their partner? Under this thinking you'd be torturing someone.
"Hours held naked in a frigid cell; days and nights without sleep while battered by thundering rock music; long periods manacled in stress positions; or the ultimate, waterboarding." These are torturous. Being slapped is hardly torturous. Overly aggressive and abusive, sure. All illegal, for sure, but let's keep things straight. Otherwise, you might be accused of torture if you slap someone and subject to the laws that don't apply to Bush.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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fattrad wrote:
"Torture works..."
Then you agree that other countries and forces should be allowed to use the same tactics on captured US soldiers and security contractors?
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John Moosie
climber
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Slapping becomes torture when it is done repeatedly without pattern. Ask those who were prisoners of war in Vietnam.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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"Khalid Sheik Mohammed...he sang like a hairy little bird."
As most would, regardless of whether they're singing the truth, or just something to get them to stop shoving bamboo splinters under their fingernails...
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Torture doesn't work; you should read "The Battle of the Casbah" by
General Paul Aussaresses. The film doesn't do the Book justice. The French broke the back of the insurgency in Algiers and in the immediate area of the city. The insurgency was forced out of the area of Algiers into the countryside Yes, the French pulled out because they decided the ultimate cost economically and socially within France wasn't worth it. Oh, but torture did work. The Gestapo was also quite successful using torture during the war against resistance groups.
What surprises me is someone still claiming it doesn't work. Torture is as old as human civilization. It works, not all the time, but much of the time.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Klinefelter, only some of his confessions were unverifiable, most of them were corraberated by others and did in fact prove to be valuable. Read the link I posted above.
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John Moosie
climber
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So Woody, if the people of Iraq capture an American soldier, then you are cool with them torturing that soldier? We signed the geneva convention to stop these types of things.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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Nefarius, slapping = infliction of pain.
How is that not torture?
I doubt the slapping was merely some "bitch slap."
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Hmmm... Well, for one, "infliction of pain" alone, doesn't qualify something to be torture.
Webster says this is torture:
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
3. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
4. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
I'd still argue that slapping, even if there's no pattern, it's repeated, etc. is more brutality than torture. It's not excruciating or severe pain, nor mental agony. Without that line, things like the LAPD working on Rodney King become torture, rather than brutality.
Just curious, however, how many folks here are speaking from any kind of experience? Doubtful it's many. I've been questioned for hours, with a high amount of slapping, so have a place to operate from when talking about it. It's abuse, not turture. It's a little easier to point out the difference between abuse and torture when you're not only an armchair quarterback.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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"1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
3. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
4. Something causing severe pain or anguish. "
If that's your definition, then people are being *tortured* in The San Bernardino County Jails.
I have witnessed this myself.
But guys like Nefarius, Klinefelter, Mr Moosie, Rokjox, and Dirtbag don't care about them. They save all their sympathies for America's enemies.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 03:31pm PT
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"But guys like Nefarius, Klinefelter, Mr Moosie, Rokjox, and Dirtbag don't care about them. They save all their sympathies for America's enemies. "
Wrong Chaz. You misunderstand me.
I don't care one lick what happens to America's enemies. I hope they all die a slow painful death, preferably from self-inflicted burns.
What I dislike is when our government advocates cruelty while disregarding laws restricting its use of power. That's a dangerously slippery slope. Defenders of the Administration hate when comparisons are made between these actions and those of well-known tyrants, but a government that advocates torture invites such comparisons.
I think America can and should do better than that.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I expected the non sequiturs; and, some of them are amusing for their silliness.
I stated what is historical fact as per the efficacy of torture. I notice no refutation of my assertion. I've noticed that some people on ST when challenged on an assertion they made, quickly change the subject and scamper away.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 05:55pm PT
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Woody, I haven't read the book: I can't comment.
But studies I have read about (but do not recall) dismissed the efficacy of torture, concluding that such tactics produce inherently unreliable information. Sure, some true facts will come out, but many people will say just about anything their torturers want to hear just to make them stop.
How can one know what is real and what is not?
"The Gestapo was also quite successful using torture during the war against resistance groups."
Why do we want to mimic the Gestapo?
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