Mountain Meadows Massacre

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Scared Silly

Trad climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 11:40am PT

Kallie - "But it had little or nothing to do with the Church"

And which Church are you speaking of?? I am assuming the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster because that is my church and we all know there is only one true church the rest are all nonbelievers, infidels, heretics, gentiles, heathens, (pick your personal favorite).

FeelioBabar

climber

Sneaking up behind you...

Sep 10, 2007 - 11:47am PT

All hail Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Now get your white sneakers on...the comet approacheth, and we are Audi 5000!

TwistedCrank

climber

The banks of reality

Sep 10, 2007 - 11:54am PT

Man in crowd III: He has given us a sign!
Man in crowd V: He has given us...his shoe!
Man in crowd III: The shoe is the sign! Let us follow his example!
Man in crowd IV: What?
Man in crowd III: Let us like him, hold up one shoe and let the other one be upon our foot, for this is his sign that all who
follow him shall do likewise!
Man in crowd III: No, no, no, the shoe is a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance!
Woman in crowd II: Cast off the shoes! Follow the gourd!
Man in crowd V: No, let us gather shoes together! Let me!
Woman in crowd: Oh, get off!
Man in crowd IV: No, no, it is a sign that like him we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!
Man in crowd V: Give me your shoe!
Man in crowd IV: Get off!
Woman in crowd II: Follow the gourd, the holy gourd of Jerusalem!
Gourdy part of crowd: The gourd! The gourd!
Man in crowd VI: Hold up the sandal, like he has demanded us...
Man in crowd III: It is a shoe! It is a shoe!
Man in crowd VI: It's a sandal!
Man in crowd III: No, it is not! It is a shoe!
Woman in crowd II: Cast it away!
Man in crowd III: Put it on!
Man in crowd IV: Now clear off!
Man in crowd V: Take the shoes and follow him!
Woman in crowd II: All thee who follow the gourdie!

Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal

Sport climber

the Low Velocity Zone

Sep 10, 2007 - 12:02pm PT

That was no dream Mr. Crowley (it's symbolic of course)...

On another Occasion, I nearly got scalped for strollin' through Hildale, Utah with only ONE woman in tow.

John Moosie

climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 12:15pm PT

Ron,

I think you will have to provide signposts.

"This is a lesson made harder to learn in a culture that celebrates payback as a bitch, in a country that will invade another country because "They tried to kill my dad."

We certainly do believe in payback. Its funny since part of George's support system is Christians who supposedly believe that vengence is Gods. I guess as Gods troopers, they get to be the avenger.

World war 3 here we come. The only way to avoid it is to overcome this notion that we are the ones who should do the paying back. The South Africans are showing the way in thier program of forgiveness over Aparthied. Maybe they are better Christians, or Mormons.

Kartch

climber

belgrade, mt

Sep 10, 2007 - 01:27pm PT

Sweet the new Mormon Bashing Thread by Ronbo.
Just about that time of the month again I suppose.

Oh yeah, I'm a Mo! That must make me crazy.

Erik the Ice Climber:
Quit posing, don't you think that Krakauer's questionable journalism about the Everest tragidy makes him a questionable authority on just about anything? He's a well known exploiter even among his climbing peers.

Kartch

climber

belgrade, mt

Sep 10, 2007 - 01:38pm PT

Sorry about the Rant.

Ron sorry to call you Ronbo.

I just did a search on ST to get an idea about the frequency of specific religions coming up.

Results of my super scientific study:
Christian - 2609
Catholic -435
Baptist - 75
Jewish - 488
Mormon - 435
Guns - 2703
Yosemite - 16354

So there you go. I guess that I'm not as picked on as I thought. I do wish that people who approach life with open minds, like climbers, could use that same open mind to UNDERSTAND why people would believe how they do. Whether it's Mormon's, Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim, or whatever. I think if we took more time to understand each other and spent less time judging each other we'd be better off.

Peace

seamus mcshane

climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 01:43pm PT

Kartch-
It's all about COMMUNICATION, or lack thereof.

Jeez, I thought maybe it was YOUR time of the month.

"Can't we all just get a-bong?";)

Kartch

climber

belgrade, mt

Sep 10, 2007 - 01:53pm PT

Seamus - Your right, kind of feels like my time of the month but I shouldn't have popped off like that.

Also, I don't write so well so perhaps some of what I was trying to COMMUNICATE was lost.

Matt

Trad climber

never ever pissing into the wind

Sep 10, 2007 - 02:29pm PT

Hey Ron, doesn't all the jewish/muslim hatered keep ya'll busy enough?
The Nazis were not Mormons, nor do the Mormons now threaten the Jewish state, last time I checked, so let a few farmers have extra wives, who the hell cares?

No religion out there that I am familiar with is entirely without guilt in it's history.

Historically, religion is just another way to create definable differences between peoples, so that one can somehow screw another, or one can get back at another for having been screwed by them at some point in the past.

In that way Ron, you follow in the proud tradition of so many who have come before. How ironic that in that way, the lines drawn by religion are blurred, and we are all again as one...

Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal

Sport climber

the Low Velocity Zone

Sep 10, 2007 - 02:37pm PT

Ron...you my friend, are an Anti-Mormite.

Jennie

Trad climber

Salt Lake

Sep 10, 2007 - 03:23pm PT

Revisionist history was given to Mormons immediately after the Mountain Meadows Massacre, when John D Lee and his men claimed Indians had carried out the murders of the Fancher party. This view was widely held among Mormons until the story began to unravel. Several of the Fancher party children actually saw their parents killed by Mormon militiamen. At least one militiaman wrote a letter of confession. In the 1870s the church began excommunication proceedings against some of the militiamen. But only John D Lee was executed for the crime.

It was said that some members of the Fancher party bragged about having participated in the massacre of Mormons at Haun's Mill and at least one had claimed to have "shot the guts out of Joe Smith", the first Mormon prophet. And the Indians were inflammed over the rumor that the Fancher party were poisoning waterholes on their journey west. Whether these rumours were invented or had elements of truth is still debated. The murders and other atrocities against Mormons occured in Missouri and Illinois while most members of the Fancher party were from Arkansas. True or false, none of these things could justify the massacre.

Mark Twain added his own revisionist story, claiming the Fanchers were murdered by five hundred Mormons wearing war paint and disguised as Indians. In fact the Mormon militiamen numbered less than 60. Its probable that Lee attempted to persuade the Indians to carry out the massacre unaided but ordered his militia to participate because the normally peaceful Paiutes showed a lack of conviction in carrying out the deed.

Lessons to be learned from the massacre? Absolutely, but unfortunately the lessons go unlearned or resolved because of the political and social polarization by both Mormons and Americans at large. Choosing up sides and rationalizing are easier than learning. Easier yet, is following the mule drawn cart that claims all religious people are irrational.

"Jon Krakauer just wrote a book on the Mormons, which is apparently a very good read."

Erik, I believe the John Krakauer book you're refering to is Under the Banner of Heaven published in 2003. Ive read the book and as a lifelong Mormon I find it very misleading and ill researched in regard to mormon history. The church's statement was; "This book is not history, and Krakauer is no historian. He is a storyteller who cuts corners to make the story sound good." Hmmm, I remember 1996 Everest climbers saying similar things about his Everest book,Into Thin Air

But depite Krakauer's rather brief and slanted treatise of Mormon history, inUnder the Banner of Heaven, he attempts to explore so-called fundementalist sects founded by excommunicated mormons and mormons who never were. And central to his purpose is promoting the old, tired dog thesis that religious people are irrational and irrational people do bad things. I find the book has little merit historically or sociologically. But Im sure a few people will find it enertaining. I'll mail you my copy if you want it. But if you want a politically supercharged work that states the Fancher party members supported abortion, gay marriage, weak national defense and believed in global warming you'll probably have to look to Hollywood.

Again, isnt revisionist history great? You don't like something, rewrite it.

Scared Silly

Trad climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 03:35pm PT

Jennie, Have you read "Secret Ceremonies"? If so what did you think of it? I found it pretty interesting. Some of my LDS friends said it was a good take and perspective.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 03:41pm PT

Back from a painless trip to the dentist, looks like there's been some activity.

Matt,
I'm kind of tired of your mistaken assumptions. I've never had a muslim person engage in a hate campaign against me, vandalizing my property, attempting to stir up trouble by bearing false witness.
But while most mormons are emminently likeable and trustworthy they cannot claim likewise innocence.

And perhaps what bothers me most is the irresponsible knee jerk denials. They very much resemble those of the current crop of pro-LDS historians addressing the massacre and Young's instructions.

Sure, we're not talking about real Nazis here, but the analogy certainly prompts recollection of the mormon practice of baptizing long deceased holocaust victims into the church until jewish protests curtailed the Mormons' pursuit of their souls.

Yes, most certainly I have an axe to grind. But I'm a jew so I don't believe in forgiveness without atonement.
But if you'll look to my OP you might see that I believe in appropriate response.

I thought that this thread could consist of that too.

Ouch!

climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 03:44pm PT

" both Mormons and Americans at large."

Jennie, how do they differ, other than religion and politics?

Question..I read awhile back where Mormons were baptizing dead Jews and others into the Mormon Church. Is this true?

Woody style edit...I see this was brought up in another post while I was hunting and pecking.

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Sep 10, 2007 - 03:55pm PT

I don't think the main focus of Krakauer's book was the current mainstream LDS church. It was focussed mostly on several splinter groups, largely with polygamist beliefs. While it wasn't a great book, it was a reasonable study of that subject.
If I remember, it mostly criticized the current church for not be more vocal in its opposition to these splinter groups, a criticism which I think is pretty justified.

Beyond that, while just about every religious group is guilty of bad behaviour in the past, that doesn't mean the LDS church gets a pass for joining the crowd with the Mountain Meadows Massacre. While we probably won't vere know conclusively if this was something ordered by LDS leaders, there seems to be enough evidence that it should at least be discussed seriously, and not dismissed out of hand as Mormon bashing.

Matt

Trad climber

never ever pissing into the wind

Sep 10, 2007 - 04:03pm PT

OK Ron,
As tired as this topic is, I will allow that indeed you find it interesting.

That said, do you realize that your OP (and many others before it) comes across as nothing more than a jab in the ribs? How can you really pretend that you are not just trolling, not just trying to incite, not just trying to insult people who you choose to group together by their religious association, and then blame for something that they clearly are not prersonally responsible for?

You say you want me to look at your OP?
OK Ron, I'll bite:

"To me the lesson is how escalating responses in a dispute or confrontation is a recipe for disaster.

Appropriate response is SO important."

Well right there is a perfect opportunity to sound reasonable, but you let it pass, rather than pointing out the frequency with which the Israeli response is/has frequently been so inappropriate wrt Palestinian violence toward Israel and Israelis.

Does "appropriate" depend on your own moral authority, or does your own moral authority depend on being "appropriate"?

John Moosie

climber

Sep 10, 2007 - 04:09pm PT

Not having a dog in the hunt, I found Kraks book on sectarian Mormons to be profound. It opened my eyes to just how twisted people can become. That has little to do with mainstream Mormons and everything to do with people who take advantage of peoples fears and weaknesses. Mormonism creates this idealogy that there are such people as prophets who are all knowing and therefore must be followed in all things. This can easily be abused. It preys of people fears of making decisions by giving them someone to blindly follow. Of course not everyone will blindly follow, some have their eyes open, but some don't. And these are the people that the wolfs prey on.

Its no different then the position of the Pope, or of other Christian religions beliefs that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. It sets someone or something up above everything else and is the open door to abuse.

Jesus came to tell everyone that the kingdom of God is found within and therefore there is no absolute authority on Earth except your own internal guidance. There is no outward savior either. Your salvation is dependant on your growth and your connection to the God within. Faith without works is dead. My or yours salvation is not dependant on what Jesus will do. He is the way shower. None of this means that you will find heaven if your internal voice leads you astray. It means you better understand that there is the ego within ( some would say carnal mind) and your Christ self. Which one you listen to determines your end results.

Any outside authority is dangerous and can be abused. It does not matter the religion. Mormons have a responsiblity for what spawns from their religion as do Catholics and Jews and Hindus and ever onward. This does not mean complete responsibilty. But since they have set up a religion with a earthly supreme authority, they are karmically responsiblity for the abuses that flow from that teaching. Just as I am Karmically responsible for what I teach.

.......................................

As for Kraks book on Everest. I enjoyed it. Realizing that it was a painful experience, realizing that Jon wrote very soon after his experience and therefore much of what he wrote was raw. Plus realizing that it was his point of view. I thought he did a good job of taking responibility for his actions and trying to understand the actions of others knowing that places like Everest are a crap shoot.

.......................................

That said, I still think yall miss the point of Rons original post. To me he seems to be wondering if the attack was retribution for past wrongs done to Mormons and he wonders if we will ever learn that an eye for an eye only ends up making everyone blind. He points to the folly of Bush junior wanting revenge for his father and how many conservative Christians took up the notion of revenge for 911.

Is revenge really the answer? Or is vengence God's?

EDiT: I was writing this as Ron posted and Matt responded.