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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 28, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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One is always their only enemy, and a very effective one.
A mind that attempts to control another human, will defeat its goal, by design, and not understand this sentence even if you hand it a dictionary.
A conspiracy is a contradiction.
Humans hold no ability to sustain a contradiction, by design of the human mind, a contradiction identification and resolution device.
The first and primary alteration or corruption of the human mind's functioning, within the design, is effected by the acquisition of the perception of institutional power, a perception that the mind is more than it really is. The stimuli to effect that perception are common and identifiable.
The power-damaged mind will intentionally create damaging contradictions, oblivious to the verifiable fact that humans hold no ability to sustain contradictions.
Therefore, first learn the design of the human mind, and how it functions, by asking and answering all related questions, and then laugh yourself to tears the rest of your life over the comedy of the humans attempting to sustain contradictions.
The bill for that knowledge is one old used carabiner each, of any condition, for the AlaskanAlpineClub.org museum. Maybe an old ice axe, rock or ice pro, perhaps an old rope.
Otherwise we send the Federal Reserve Banksters, a malicious but pitiably lot whose ignorant offspring will progressively destroy their goal.
DougBuchanan.com
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 28, 2008 - 03:04am PT
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I'd like to watch it but the saucer just landed, and I'm due on Vega Three in four hours.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:10am PT
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Off course Ed would respond such: he's one of THEM, a government contractor. ha They must of sent him to pooh pooh the 100 unanswered questions pointed out. That's their only defense; when you don't have evidence or even a plausible theory you use ad hominem attacks - "you're a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists".
Who financed 9/11 is an irrelevant question; just like Oswald being a "former" military intelligence officer is irrelevant. And Ruby an FBI "informant". right. Only conspiracy theorists would see any connection there.
Who's going to get the first RFD chip installed? Those evil ARAABS are no doubt really after our children.
ha
carry on
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:41am PT
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Or better stated....
It is not that they are conspiring together to effect the alleged evil, it is that they, several or many different people or entities, individually seek to advance their own institutional power, by design of the process of power, and all institutional power functions on the same process.
The objective illusion is a conspiracy, but the more accurate, detailed analysis reveals independent actions among functional rivals serving the same goal of centralized power they perceive to control.
Its doomed nature is effected by each of the many independent contradictions of different minds meeting their inherent failure point periodically through the process, much to the ongoing frustration of those attempting to benefit from the each other's lies and power-grabs.
Because the process of power offers its participants enjoyment only upon successfully damaging other people (maliciousness), creating more contradictions, upon which power is dependent, which is ultimately doomed in each involved mind, and offers the objective observers enjoyment upon watching the contradictions ultimately collapse each participant's goals, the observers derive the sustainable enjoyment.
Learn what power is, and how it functions in human minds. And therefore enjoy the show.
DougBuchanan.com
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 01:06pm PT
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I don't know what Doug is going on about, I did look at his website and couldn't quite parse the bits of it...
As for conspiracy theory, and other things such as superstitions and the like, I have felt for sometime now that it is the way the brain works, probably a general feature of memory. That is, we are forever associating things together, we (humans) interpret it as "cause and effect" relationships, but it is really just the way memory works, and the more surprising the association, the stronger the memory.
Some of those cause-and-effect relationships have no real relationship. And you can think of it as an "evolutionary" programming process where many relationships are remembered, but only a few persist as the relationships are reenforced over time by repeated occurrences. Our behavior is shaped by our perception of coincidence, take gambling for instance, which takes advantage of the fact that behaviors learned by intermittent "reward" are the hardest to extinguish...
So it is that we naturally associate "facts" and collect them into elaborate "cause-and-effect" explanations, theories, of reality.
There is no survival penalty for doing this, unless our allocation of resources, our "bets" are always wrong... which could not happen as we either run out of resources and "die" or the false "theory" is discredited and the behavior is extinguished.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 28, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Thanks for bringing this up k-man!
I liked this movie a lot, have watched it several times and shown it to my teenagers. Usually can't be bothered with conspiracy theories. I see paranoia as a natural streak in the human brain when you combine that normal desire to look for cause-and-effect with some degree of intelligence and a bit of OCD. So I usually just step aside when a conspiracy theory come rolling by. Can't be bothered.
But in spite of skepticism I am quite convinced by the evidence in Zeitgeist. All those steel girders cut at a neat 45-degree angle. Buildings collapsing squarely into their own footprint, just the way a pro demolition team would drop it. And then, hours later on the afternoon of 9-11, that other Trade Center building (#9?) suddenly self-destructing without any airplane impacts or apparently any other external force applied. An event pointedly ignored in the Commission Report.
Then there's the Pentagon. If I recall, that was barely touched on in Zeitgeist. But apparently the hole in the building was too small for an airliner impact, airplane parts were not found or exhibited from the debris, witnesses described an incoming noise more consistent with a missile, and all the surveillance video footage disappeared. Hmmmm....
So, without getting too caught up in the whole thing, I find the evidence presented eerily convincing. Chalk up another one for an increasingly jaded view of our "democracy."
Wish I could add W's response to the evidence, his deer-in-the-headlights look and then placidly returning to reading to grade schoolers (let's not panic the little tykes...). Unfortunately, his non-response is perfectly consistent with his dumb-as-a-post self. Six months and counting. Goody.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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My college-level argumentation students voted to watch and analyze this and Loose Change last semester. They all had assignments to research one specific claim in the film and most came back with some truth to it (missle into Petagon, false, etc however) and now both the conservatives and the liberals are a little worried after that class. I had nothing to do with their conclusions or impressions - I just watched it along with them, asked questions, and moderate discussion. It was a very interesting exercise and it made a lot of the kids think. But I am always worried about contesting religious doctrine in class. I don't feel that's my right.
Conspiracy theory . . . I have a hard time thinking that many people could be that organized, but at the same time, the bigger picture seems to be true.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
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Yoooo Ed.....
Well stated, and a valid concept.
But consider a concept that includes a percentage of what you and I have stated, if you wish, because that is the case.
The associations are there and real, which is why the mind recognizes them, but the mind often extends them into convenient, fabricated associations of its prior interest, and does not recognize certain of the verifiable associations that are not commonly learned because humans so commonly make hasty statements rather than ask and answer related questions.
1. Learn the functional design of the human mind.
2. Learn what institutional power is, and how it functions in the human mind.
3. Be able to verify your conclusions in relation to the above, against all questions any humans can ask.
4. And therefore laugh yourself to tears the rest of your life with the knowledge most sought by all people, easily acquired by the simple process of patiently asking and answering questions.
Carry on....
Doug
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2008 - 07:18pm PT
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Ed wrote
"Nicholas Kristof wrote an Op Ed piece in the NYTimes on March 30, 2008 with the memorable quote, regarding the Rev. Jeremiah Wright statements that: "the sad reality is that conspiracy theories and irrationality aren’t a black problem. They are an American problem."
I think that he's right."
Come on Ed, I thought you scientists objectively examined evidence instead of making claims on gut feelings. The problem is our system doesn't INVESTIGATE conspiracies. They are covered up by the powers that be.
Can their be any doubt that there was a conspiracy in the Administration to Attack Iraq, even though they had no valid reason to? Plenty of evidence mounting that they simply planned to do it?
How about the conspiracy to depose FDR that Two time Medal of Honor winner Smedley Butler uncovered and Congress basically acknowledged? Swept under the rug.
Wake up buddy. Just like Physics, all is not as it seems on the surface.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
"..The Business Plot, the Plot Against FDR, or the White House Putsch, was a conspiracy involving several wealthy businessmen to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.
Details of the matter came to light when retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler testified before a Congressional committee that a group of men had attempted to recruit him to serve as the leader of a plot and to assume and wield power once the coup was successful. Butler testified before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in 1934 [1]. In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of several men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations on the existence of the plot,[2] but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten...."
This has only been further corroborated in recent times.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/02/2933/
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2008 - 07:20pm PT
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More on the same in case folks don't think sh#t happens
How many of you know there was a business plan that went VERY FAR in order to overthrow FDR? The public didn't know or accept it for years. The conspirators weren't talking. It was finally PROVEN in 1967 and yet we still don't know much or talk about it.
Everybody should read this
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm
"In the summer of 1933, shortly after Roosevelt's "First 100 Days," America's richest businessmen were in a panic. It was clear that Roosevelt intended to conduct a massive redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. Roosevelt had to be stopped at all costs.
The answer was a military coup. It was to be secretly financed and organized by leading officers of the Morgan and Du Pont empires. .....The plotters attempted to recruit General Smedley Butler to lead the coup. They selected him because he was a war hero who was popular with the troops. The plotters felt his good reputation was important to make the troops feel confident that they were doing the right thing by overthrowing a democratically elected president. However, this was a mistake: Butler was popular with the troops because he identified with them. That is, he was a man of the people, not the elite. When the plotters approached General Butler with their proposal to lead the coup, he pretended to go along with the plan at first, secretly deciding to betray it to Congress at the right moment.
What the businessmen proposed was dramatic: they wanted General Butler to deliver an ultimatum to Roosevelt. Roosevelt would pretend to become sick and incapacitated from his polio, and allow a newly created cabinet officer, a "Secretary of General Affairs," to run things in his stead. The secretary, of course, would be carrying out the orders of Wall Street. If Roosevelt refused, then General Butler would force him out with an army of 500,000 war veterans from the American Legion. But MacGuire assured Butler the cover story would work:
"You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second…"
The businessmen also promised that money was no object: Clark told Butler that he would spend half his $60 million fortune to save the other half......The plot fell apart when Butler went public. The general revealed the details of the coup before the McCormack-Dickstein Committee, which would later become the notorious House Un-American Activities Committee. (In the 50s, this committee would destroy the lives of hundreds of innocent Americans with its communist witch hunts.) The Committee heard the testimony of Butler and French, but failed to call in any of the coup plotters for questioning, other than MacGuire. In fact, the Committee whitewashed the public version of its final report, deleting the names of powerful businessmen whose reputations they sought to protect. The most likely reason for this response is that Wall Street had undue influence in Congress also. Even more alarming, the elite-controlled media failed to pick up on the story, and even today the incident remains little known. The elite managed to spin the story as nothing more than the rumors and hearsay of Butler and French, even though Butler was a Quaker of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. Butler, appalled by the cover-up, went on national radio to denounce it, but with little success.
Butler was not vindicated until 1967, when journalist John Spivak uncovered the Committee's internal, secret report. It clearly confirmed Butler's story.....
Thinking we have a transparent government or a open media is a mistake
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2008 - 07:22pm PT
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Sorry to clog up this thread with previous demonstrated facts but here's more
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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I thought the most interesting part of Zeitgeist was the info on the Federal Reserve at the end and all the ominous quotes from Presidents and other insiders.
I thought the religion bit was pretty questionable although it's probably true that Apostle Paul skewed the teachings and history to sell it to pagans.
peace
karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 28, 2008 - 09:10pm PT
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I'll stick with the explanations and analysis published on this matter by "Popular Mechanics". That plus the numbers of people necessary to pull off something like this would require so many people that they would have been stumbling over each other. Then there is the impossibility of such an incompetent and blundering administration composed mostly of third raters and clowns managing to organize and successfully succeed at what would be the greatest conspiracy in world history. That last sentence sums up what many of you have been saying about the Bush administration for years. How do you explain away this puzzle?
You want scientists and technologists looking objectively at what happened? They did.
But let's face it; some of you are paranoid loons that will never accept the obvious because you don't want to. You're very much similar in psychology to religious fanatics that deny Evolution.
You are, however, entertaining; please go on.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Jun 28, 2008 - 11:25pm PT
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The "two many people involved" counter argument is bogus. They all have chips embedded in their heads and become zombies when the switch if thrown. They don't remember a thing. Haven't you seen Manchurian Candidate?
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Rockermike, then you've never been very deeply entrenched in politics. Things that require a concerted effort on the scale we're talking about get mired in the actual "how tos" and changing environment.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/postreply.html?topic_id=441190&tn=20
But there is also the Bohemian Grove, so . . . but I still tend to think it's just a stupid fraternity for the rich and powerful.
Karl, it's not "probably true," it's definitely true. Pretty much ALL literature we have was passed on to us by Christian missionaries who were the only people literate at the time. They let works survive that had a Christian message and killed all the others. Google "Dream of the Rood" from the dark ages and you'll see how they appealed to pagan values. Gilgamesh and Beowulf, too. In the end, there's a Christian message about salvation that they played up big time in the recent movie.
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_MUDD_
climber
Schwagstaff
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Jun 28, 2008 - 11:46pm PT
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Woody
Popular Mechanics owned by Hearst Publishing.
"Mr. Hearst in his long and not laudable career has inflamed Americans against Spaniards, Americans against Japanese, Americans against Filipinos, Americans against Russians, and in the pursuit of his incendiary campaign he has printed downright lies, forged documents, faked atrocity stories, inflammatory editorials, sensational cartoons and photographs and other devices by which he abetted his jingoistic ends." --Chapter 17: Farewell: Lord of San Simeon, Lords of the Press, George Seldes
The Original Father of Yellow Journalism has his Grandchildren following in his footsteps.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jun 29, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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My God! Now it's the Hearst Corp. et al and all those scientist, engineers and technologists from various universities and institutes that were ask in to investigate. If that's the case, I'll join up myself. Imagine how all those people were brought on board to be part of the plot; I'm amazed at the brilliance of such an organization. This makes the conspiracy so large that much of the country must be in on it. We're talking thousands at this point.
Keep entertaining me please.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 29, 2008 - 12:48am PT
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One person can dramatically and suddenly alter the world, by a process that others would later claim to be a conspiracy, but could not be by definition.
The moment he involved a second person, or more, to create the conspiracy, things would start to go to hell, because of the complexity of two or more complex minds dealing with poorly communicated data involving inherently unsustainable contradictions, but routinely causes much damage before it gets there on schedule. The damage is accommodated over time by normal social activity.
The process for one person to effect the result only requires the one person to ask and answer more questions to resolve all the contradictions between the start and conclusion. Interestingly, he could therefore do no harm, because that would be a contradiction.
He can, however, collapse all harmful conspiracies in progress. They are real. They will continue to do much harm. They are effected by common, power-damaged minds. They are within the human design. Their associations are not what are described, but have the same effect. The conspiracies end up as miserable failures, by design beyond the comprehension of power-damaged minds. But they are such good entertainment, none of the people who know how to suddenly collapse them want to ruin the show.
The above accounts for all the conspiracies, and those who say they do or don't exist.
You can learn how they function with any mind. You need only learn the design of the human mind, and that of institutional power, concepts never learned by conspiracy advocates who are too busy explaining their conclusions rather than questioning their conclusions.
Enjoy the show.
Doug
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