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Gum Bee
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Sep 30, 2004 - 04:40pm PT
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wow hardman
It sure was hard trying to find your climbing post
that was buried in all the political sh*t.
thank you for trying to keep it fresh here, on activities we all enjoy
such as oh, hiking, climbing, enjoying nature, and wildlife.
I say post the political stuff on political sites.
It takes too long for a page to load for me to waste my time trying to weed trough the unrelated stuff.
Matt, get a life & go climb a rock dude... the city is getting to you.
Hardguy, see ya at the pub,
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Holdplease2
Trad climber
All over
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Sep 30, 2004 - 04:42pm PT
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Wasn't blaming you, Matt, or even mentioning your name. Simply making a point based on the post above mine regarding whether or not climbing discussions are impacted by the vast amount of political spray. Take it or leave it.
FYI - I don't have DSL because I move too often to justify a year long contract, so it won't be anytime soon. So I will be suffering the misery of downloading massive threads to figure it out one by one...far too slow for scientific analysis, I am sorry to say.
And FYI...just because you got your own thread doesn't mean it will be limited to the topic of you for long...this is supertopo, after all. ;)
-Kate.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Sep 30, 2004 - 04:57pm PT
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This isn't aimed at Matt specifically, but I don't want to start another political thread...so here's my 2 cents worth.
What is the point of the politcal ranting? Is it to let of steam or try to educate/persuade others to see things the way that you do (and vote that way too!)? The steam letting is good fun sometimes, but as someone who'd be psyched to see a regime change, I think getting out the vote is more important.
I was really bummed during the war protests in SF that the biggest freaks seemed to get the most press for the same reason that I'm bummed to see political banners on El Cap or half the treads on ST about politics. I think when you start protesting too hard and start pissing people off who were leaning in the direction of supporting your party, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2004 - 05:43pm PT
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even though it wasn't aimed specifically at me, still, i disagree.
i think there is a tremendous group of people who are pissed off but do not feel there is a significant difference between their choices in our 2 party system, or do not feel that their single voice makes a significant difference.
i don't believe in the middle ground voter that has not yet made up their mind yet, especially not this year. i also don't think there are many minds that, once made up, can be changed by casual or polite and informal discussion with people that are not in their direct circle of friends and family.
maybe i think that pissing some people off sometimes will create the opportunity, or even a need for them to open their mouths when they might otherwise just sit and listen to the radio, and people whose opinions matter to them might then be weighed against what they hear in the media.
i do think that protesters who barf on the sidewalk in front of cameras might be pushing away the average middle american housewife or factory worker, but if they shares the political opinions of the protester, i think it's highly unlikely that such a display will change their vote, rather that is something that the right wing will pick up on to rationalize their own support for a government that sells out the environment, etc.
even if a message is shouted at the top of ones voice in a quiet theater (haven't actually done that yet), if it is filled with facts and is from the heart, i think it is hard to ignore. in addition, i think people are flodded, and very effectively so, by "news information" that has a specific intention, and all too often that intention is to make us forget what we knew to be true just 2 days/2 weeks/2 months/2 years ago, so harping on the same old stuff (perhaps some would call it 'kicking a dead horse') at least reminds us of how the old horse differs from the new horse...
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 30, 2004 - 05:58pm PT
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2004 - 06:28pm PT
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DMT- i feel ya.
i may have been out of line the other day, and i deleted some stuff on another thread. it might not have been a wise and reasoned move to post what i was feeling right there, but all i can say is that i am very affected by the huge cost in human life of the war our country is fighting.
as for alienation of any community, i generally try not to be the one that transforms and degrades climbing threads, and i don't think i have been disrespectful to anyone who didn't disrespect me 1st, so you must be thinking of someone else...
=)
i generally agree that people who aren't interested can skip the political threads, and so they don't really have a legit beef in saying that this is a "climbing forum", especially when there are clearly many participants who are interested in those subjects! after all, no one opinion, no one prefrence, is any more valid than another. if you scroll through the posts you will see that there are tons of things being talked about.
"What these folks are asking you is not unreasonable"
FWIW- i get a lot more positive feedback than negative, and if i look up this thread, one posted to gie me sh#t, it still looks about 50/50, so i could easily be elected president, and them some!
now i'll shut up for awhile so i don't wake atchafalaya up, 3 days in the valley, comin my way...
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Sep 30, 2004 - 06:30pm PT
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hey Mattyboy - did you make this protest?
Apology To The World
Friday Oct 1, 2004 Protest
City & State New York, NY
Topic / Issue Peace
Location 5th Street Bridge
Speaker Ben Laden, Jr.
Description
On this day, we ask all peace activists - the wanna-be anarchists, unwashed hippie sixties trash, and Mastercard Marxists whose rich mommies and daddies support their bohemian lifestyles - to gather near the GOP Convention site and ask the world to forgive our stupidity and cowardice in the face of the greatest threat to our survival since the Nazis. We realize now that the average peace creep who won't fight for freedom is a contemptable creature who has to be kept free "by the exertions of men better than himself." to quote John Stuart Mill. We will ask for forgiveness for not supporting war against those who would kill innocents, including their own citizens, and publicly behead prisoners in direct violation of their own religion. We will then go home, fire up a doobie, and watch Spongebob Squarepants until our brains ooze out.
They're talking about you here!!
http://www.protest.net/event.cgi?ID=495809&state_values=TYPE%.Protest,SITE!.1
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Sep 30, 2004 - 06:35pm PT
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Someone check atchafalaya to make sure he's still breathing, his lips are starting to turn blue!
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2004 - 06:37pm PT
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at least you didn't ask me if i was going to this one:
http://www.protest.net/event.cgi?ID=375258&state_values=ADMISSION_INFO*.Drugs,SITE!.1
Running over protesters in road and peace makers
2:00 am, Wednesday Aug 7, 2013
Special Event
City & State all
Topic / Issue Drugs
Location anywhere stinky people gather and or protesters
Speaker john holms
Phone Contact 666-6666
Sponsor ford
Description
A parade of drunks having fun running over all stinky people.
hey, isn't that your home #?
hmmmmm...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 30, 2004 - 06:42pm PT
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I respect the steps Matt has taken to bring the situation in to balance. Good Job.
I also respect his posts, since they tend to be articulate, well reasoned, and complete with facts to support his view. And I respect that he's jumped into his own bashing thread with diplomacy and faced the music with grace.
Neither he, nor I (especially not me), have started that many political threads. We just jump in. And I remember a few political threads that Hardman started himself (some deleted after a short time like one "Bush is turning around the economy"
This backlash would probably have mellowed the political bent of the forum for awhile but then, the first debate in in a few hours so you might as well bear with it. The election is in a month. Bush is ahead in the polls, If he wins, I'll be too depressed to post and ya'll can complain about specific issues like drilling in Yellowstone and Alaska, privatization of National Parks, and the rape of the environment. There is way too much at stake to be silent but I won't disrepect the intelligent folks that we need to work with to turn things around.
I also appreciate that some of the more conservative posters have shared their views in a rational and respectful way. We've come along way from the pre-registration jerking off. (I know some of ya'll miss that but that spice lingers too)
Peace
Karl
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:00pm PT
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Whoa... its cool, I am back. That last bongload took me over the top. Matt, thanks for backing off, not down. Funny part is I agree with you. However, I think you blew a fuse this morning when you turned my favorite distraction from work (supertopo) into an obituary column. Depressing... I actually turn to supertopo to get away from politics and opinions on politics. Not that I dont enjoy the occasional slanderous political flames and threads... but, all things have a limit.
As Melissa wisely pointed out, and I am paraphrasing, when neither side is listening, why bother continuing to talk.
Almost time to crack one, pack one, and whack one again. Proceed... Atchafalaya
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ct
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:01pm PT
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I definitely agree with Karl Baba. Matt consistently provides articulate and informative posts, often with links to topics that I have found very useful. Example: his post linking to factcheck.org, a great site I was unaware of that exposes the BS claims that come from BOTH sides of the plate. Matt linked to that in one of his posts, and I wouldn't even have heard of it otherwise. While I may not always agree with Matt, that's true of every poster, everywhere. What I do respect is the time that he takes to respond intelligently, instead of simply being drawn down into the absurd name calling that goes on otherwise. Matt has responded calmly to all the stuff thrown at him today, and he gets points for that.
While I too have found the constant political back and forth becoming tiresome, what I find much more frustrating is the pattern that such threads invariably degenerate towards. If a debate is held at a high intellectual level, there is much to be gained, perhaps something to be learned. It is when I see the constant name calling, irrational insults, and meaningless bashing take over that I become disillusioned and reluctantly turn back to my work. Karl is right in that the election will be over in a month, and at that point we can all back to equally acrimonious arguments about rapbolting, power drilling, etc. I don't find it unreasonable that politics be debated on a climbing site. As poop*ghost so elequently stated in a past thread:
"I believe that all the political talk here is GOOD. Perhaps the fact that we each have only one vote makes us feel a little frustrated in the simple fact that we ALONE can't change a damn thing. Having a venue to discuss issues like the war in Iraq, environmental issues, and the state of the white house is important. Sure, this is a climbing board. BUT we are a big old family here. We share belays and fixed lines and beers every damn weekend. If we can't sit back and chew the fat with each other, get pissed, scream and make irrational demands... then what sort of family are we?!"
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2004 - 07:02pm PT
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thanks karl.
you pbly know all about this, but the polling services intentionally oversample republicans as compared to their actual percentage of the voting population. their rationale is that historically, republicans turn out in greater #s, and so their sample is statistically accurate.
additionally, there is no provision in their formulas to account for people like me, who have a cel phone but no land line, a group that tends to be younger than the voters that typically vote republican.
i believe that the republican base was fairly well charged up at the end of the clinton era, and there were many moderate democrats who stayed home because they were somewhat put off by clinton's sex drive and were fatigued w/ politics in general. still, it was pretty close (and gW almost won).
i would predict that a huge turnout of americans who don't often vote will demonstrate that the polls are inaccurate.
EDIT
atch-
it is depressing.
and it's disturbing.
and it's x 40,000 people or so.
that's a lot of people, and they are not just #s.
that's the whole f*#king point.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:20pm PT
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Karly Blabla said...' Bush is ahead in the polls, If he wins, I'll be too depressed to post '
Man, nothing like giving me a reason to help Bush get re -elected now,eh? HA!
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Flash
Ice climber
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:23pm PT
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"articulate, well reasoned,"
You are kidding, right? Well-reasoned? It is the most hysterical babbling bullcrap I have ever seen, "backed-up" by cut/paste and links to wacko leftist websites that have no credibility.
You guys are too funny!
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ct
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:30pm PT
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Flash, Actually try checking out the factcheck.org link I referred to before bashing it. The FIRST article is about Kerry falsely accusing Cheney about Halliburton. Not exactly the 'wacko leftist websites that have no credibility' you mention.
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Flash
Ice climber
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:36pm PT
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I was referring to Matt...he lost credibility with me a long time ago so I automatically blow off anything he says.
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TW#T
Gym climber
san diego, ca
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:37pm PT
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Flash, you dipsh#t....don’t let your mouth get your ass in trouble. Quit while you're ahead dumbass, the community college system obviously didn’t teach you how to communicate effectively.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 30, 2004 - 07:38pm PT
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Matt, I got the point before you posted, without even reading your posts. Remember, i said I agreed... thats the point. Clearly unreasonable...
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2004 - 07:43pm PT
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atch- i actually was NOT reiterating it for you...
hey flash-
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QQQQQQQQQQQRTRTRFl tl!!!
p8y6b768bo67v!
yu;8y7['0;897[' 508TY['08F7N[S[N09 'W I43VTR,CMN.LIYU ;3R
O87;O 3Y5;'4rt97fz'p9u PZEO:5truj$Fwe
o87y '3pw95 7ut'p9gfujv/;kdsnbvrf
;o87y ;[8 ty'opgf8wvh/s!!!!!!!
!
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( . ) ( . )
^
^
^
flash
(you're a boobie)
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