Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
nita
climber
chico ca
|
|
Hey Moosie, Nice to here from you, did you have to buy a new computer?
What is SDA?
|
|
ralph_teh_klimber
climber
ralph town
|
|
the only perfect human right now is my girlfriend, with my wife being a close 2nd.
|
|
Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
Time and again we see that no one can turn one away from Christ faster than a Christian. "Christianity" has come to take on a very worldly connotation, much in part because of the millions of closed hearted people who profess to be followers. Christ himself said many would come in his name but never know him. From my way of seeing, that is being fulfilled on a grand scale. There are also those who pray (in any way practice their religion) to be seen of men. They have their reward, as Christ pointed out. One should be humble and quiet about sacred things and, as someone else pointed out, be utterly loving. In this world but not Of this world.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
You know Jody... it's interesting - just last night I had a wonderful discussion about "God" with this wonderful woman I'm hanging out with. It was wonderful because it was an open discussion - not one where I felt like I was pulling teeth (which is so ridiculously typical when engaging you with your "discussion") It was a discussion I wonder if you'd know much about though. I'm wondering, what is your take on, oh say, Nataraja (dancing Shiva), Krishna, Haile Selassie, and/or Muhammad. Does your apparent strict Christian view allow you to embrace these people or dieties? If so, how?
You've never shown (by my observation) the ability to engage in two way discussion. Your ability to argue/discuss from a logical point of view is essentially non-existant.
Honestly, you do appear to be very much a "thumper". I think that the sooner you realize this and eschew that trend the sooner you will follow your own bliss and not that of others.
peace,
Doug
PS - well said John M.
PPS - Oli: DING! well said as well.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
I'd have to dig back many years to find the many examples. I'm not wasting that time. IF you don't remember, well, then you don't. But there's not doubt in my mind it's there (and I'm rather sure many others on this forum would agree with me).
It's true, I want nothing to do with Christianity especially from your perspective. The idea of "God", however, is one where the jury is still out for me (and probably always will be). They are not, from my persective, directly related.
I don't see your discussion regarding the questions I asked. Typical really from all I've ever seen you offer (no offense).
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
hmm... never should have bothered. Nevermind.
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
The Continuous Life
What of the neighborhood homes awash
In a silver light, of children crouched in the bushes,
Watching the grown-ups for signs of surrender,
Signs that the irregular pleasures of moving
From day to day, of being adrift on the swell of duty,
Have run their course? Oh parents, confess
To your little ones the night is a long way off
And your taste for the mundane grows; tell them
Your worship of household chores has barely begun;
Describe the beauty of shovels and rakes, brooms and mops;
Say there will always be cooking and cleaning to do,
That one thing leads to another, which leads to another;
Explain that you live between two great darks, the first
With an ending, the second without one, that the luckiest
Thing is having been born, that you live in a blur
Of hours and days, months and years, and believe
It has meaning, despite the occasional fear
You are slipping away with nothing completed, nothing
To prove you existed. Tell the children to come inside,
That your search goes on for something you lost--a name,
A family album that fell from its own small matter
Into another, a piece of the dark that might have been yours,
You don’t really know. Say that each of you tries
To keep busy, learning to lean down close and hear
The careless breathing of earth and feel its available
Languor come over you, wave after wave, sending
Small tremors of love through your brief,
Undeniable selves, into your days, and beyond.
--Mark Strand
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
|
|
Pantheism = the mutt of religions? haha!
"Classical pantheism is a form of pantheism that equates existence with God without attempting to redefine or to minimize either term, and has an inclusive demeanor towards other world faiths. It is a classical concept that is represented by many religious traditions including Hinduism and Kabbalistic Judaism, amongst many other world religions and philosophies.
Due to some of the changes in usage of the word "pantheism" today, classical pantheism is distinct primarily because of its simplicity and compatibility with other religious traditions.
There is a hero with a thousand faces, haven't you heard?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
Hey Jody,
The Sadducees and Pharisees of Jesus' time believed they were "Right". Yet Jesus revealed that they had lost their first Love. They Loved the law more then they loved the spirit. Their actions were based on the carnal mind and on judgement, not on Love of decency and kindness and forgiveness. They were righteous in there own minds but not in their hearts. This is the same problem as modern Christianity. This creates "Black and White" thinking which leads to a cold heart. That is why revelations reveals that most churches have lost their true heart. The heart of service, Love and forgiveness.
Nature reached out to you Jody. He tried to reveal to you what he sees. Can you understand that? Even if he is wrong, it is your reaction that you will be judged by. Your reaction reveals a heart filled with judgement. Where is your willingness to hear natures pain? Where is your willingness to first look for the beam in your own eye and see if perhaps Nature has a point. Can you not feel his frustration with you and do you not have some empathy for this frustration? Jesus didn't tell us to wait until the other person can be Loving or patient. He told us that we were first to be Loving, forgiving and patient. He told us we must turn the other cheek. This turning of the other cheek does no good if we do it with a cold judgemental heart. It only works if we can truly find forgiveness. Can you first forgive Nature any perceived wrong doings he might have done and then speak to him? Instead of simply judging him and devolving into anger and hurt. As a follower of Jesus you are called to be the first to show kindness and forgiveness. Not the other way around. It isn't just about loving your friends. Even an evil person loves his friends. It is about loving even those who spitefully use you. That is impossible to do with the carnal mind but is immanently possible with the mind of Christ which is unconditional Love.
Jesus never once sayed, " I am right and you are wrong". That isn't a loving statement.
Jody....I see your heart. I see that you are trying to do right. That is good. But until you make a further effort to put on the mind of Christ and to die daily to your carnal remind, reminding yourself at every moment to be Loving, then you will only come across as self righteous and not as Loving. This is why people here including Nature are so upset and angry with you and with the current Christian church. It has become much like the church that Jesus preached against. The one run by the Sadducees and the Pharisees. Full of Laws but not of Love.
Love is what fullfills the Law. That is why Jesus said he came to fullfill the Law. He came to show its heart. You have this ability within you Jody. The ability to hear your inner guide. The still small voice. I have zero doubt that your inner voice is calling you to rise higher.
I do not judge you Jody. I see your heart and your desire to be better then you are. I simply ask you to examine whether you have been self righteous or not and then rise above that. You are able and it is no excuse to simply say that you are not perfect. That isn't an apology. That is an attempt to excuse yourself from doing better. Be the Love Jody. The unconditional love that you are created to Be.
I AM
John
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Now that .....
was awesome and very beautiful John.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
...and then there are people like John, with responses/posts like that, that make it so I won't just give up. But for now I will return to doing my research on Hanuman. After that some work on Pinchamayarasana and then maybe I'll feel like returning to embracing more "teeth pulling" (actually, I'm going climbing after that :-).
John, thank you.
Namaste,
Doug
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
|
|
Very thoughtful and insightful, John. Thank you.
Erik
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
I am heartened to know that you will keep on trying Nature. I see your inner beauty and am glad to know that you are on this planet.
Perhaps instead of seeing it as "pulling teeth" you could learn to do as the Bhudda taught and be non-attached to the outcome of your attempts to be the Truth. Then your interactions with others wont be about their reaction, it will be about you Being who you are, a Loving, caring person who wants to know the Truth as I think you realize that there is more to life then just physical Law and that we All can be better.
Wouldn't that be a fabulous world? One where everyone rises to a state of unconditional Love and therefore experiences Life as unconditional Love. Think of the sushifests in that world...woo hooo.....
I believe that this is possible by doing as Paul taught and putting on the mind of Christ which is unconditional Love. We can experience Life as unconditonal Love and we do not have to wait until others first do this. So don't wait for Jody. Look within yourself and see where you are attached to some outcome. Then let it go. This is the path to eternal Peace as taught by both Jesus and the Bhudda.
Nature, I really admire your willingness to serve others. That is a genuine gift to yourself and to everyone. As you delve further into the Truth, you will find yourself freer and freer from suffering and ultimately realize that to serve yourself, you must first serve others. How about you offering to Jody the same thing that you want from him? Offer him patience, kindness and Love. Then surrender it to non-attachment. Then if he does not respond in kind you have done your duty to be the Light into the world and can release him to the Judgement of Karma. Vengence isn't yours. It is God's through karma. If you sow vengence, then you will reap it for yourself. Sow instead forgiveness and you will reap eternal life. The eternal life of Truth fullfilled by unconditional Love which is Bliss......
I Am
John
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
Hey Fattrad,
So there is no "God"? Life was created by a series of coincidences?
I feel for you man. That is a dark dark world you believe in. You had better hope that coincidence remains on your side.
I prefer to see the inherent order in life and realize that there is more to life then just coincidence.
From Gitanjali by Rabindranath Tagore
The same stream of life that
Runs through my veins night
and Day runs through the world
and Dances in rythmic measures.
It is the same life that shoots
in Joy through the dust of the Earth
in numberless blades of grass and
breaks into tumultous waves of
leaves and flowers.
It is the same life that is rocked
in the ocean cradle of birth and
of death, in ebb, and in flow.
I feel my limbs are made glorious
by the touch of this world of life.
And my pride is from the life-throb
of ages dancing in my blood
this moment.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
To eat and reproduce.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
Ya know, Ouch! A guy from Portola could take that post a while back the wrong way, as a flame even ;)
Jay-¿extinguished?-bro
"Feed em on peaches,
let 'em find jesus
on their own."
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
LOL! My bad, Jaybro. I meant to say Taylorsville.
|
|
Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
|
|
You guys aren't getting the central theme of Jody's religion.
Don't you understand that the only rule of his religion is that he must believe, at all costs, without doubt, or he goes to some undefined, unproveable "hell" when he dies?
Of course he's judgemental. Of course. Because his religion is based literally and strictly on faith in what men have told him or in what men have written down in a wonderfully interesting, at least partly fictional book called the Bible.
That is the key tenet of what he and millions of Christians believe: that they must believe, no matter what the contrary evidence before their eyes or in their minds, at all costs.
That's how I would have built a religion, too.
He thinks he IS being loving by harshly bringing you to the fold.
Jody - you want an example of Bible thumping - you started this thread, with the purpose of telling atheists and anti-God speakers that "there is a void" in their lives and that the only thing that can fill that void is God.
There's one.
Mighty Hiker - very good post.
Nature and Moosie - also nice posts.
-A
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
John, in so many ways, I see your point(s). I appreciate your wise words. I will take them to heart. I should not view it as teeth pulling and will no longer view it as such. The discussion (on this forum) with jody regarding his religion and his god are long and deep. They long ago frustrated me and I eventually gave up. I was/am not alone. That I returned to the discussion almost perplexes me.
(for what it's worth, the biggest reason(s) I will not provide examples for him is because the Search feature on this forum makes it practically impossible to find them. That, and as many have seen so many times in the past he'd deny them as being such... I do feel I have done my part and made the effort. but I digress).
As you stated earlier I did reach out to Jody. The (my) attachment to the outcome was real and left me yet again frustrated. Vengence never was a part of my energy towards him and his (percieved by me?) inability to see what I see (or do not see for either of us). That is not in my heart for him or anyone else walking this planet.
I recognize I have further work to do in so many respects. I am trying. Thank you again for your words - they run very deep with meaning and truth.
Peace,
Doug
Let the river of these Names take you...
Let yourself float in the beauty of your own heart
into the ocean of Love that fills all space,
that always is...
that only is.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
"the relentless God-bashing on this site"
I'm not sure that it's god-bashing. There are a fair number of skeptics, agnostics and atheists on ST, to judge by what people say. My impression is that many are theists, but not adherents of any particular sect or religion. Most seem to agree with the values ostensibly held by most organized religions, though not the beliefs and dogmas. Most reject the notion that any religion is the one true path, and are quite sure that most religions are human creations, and so flawed.
Most of what happens on ST seems to be bashing of organized religion, rather than god-bashing. Particularly in-our-faces organized religion. And there's considerable bashing of religions that seek to impose their values and beliefs on others, or seek to confuse government and religion.
It's a long stretch to claim that vocal criticism of organized religion, or objection to its tactics, implies god-bashing. ST seems an uncomfortable environment for fundamentalists of any stripe - Jewish, Christian, Muslim or other.
In other words, we're a bunch of free-thinking believers, who obstinately refuse to subscribe to much more. Heretics, if you like. Which must be frustrating for the "true believers". No wonder they sometimes get preachy and upset - we insist on thinking for ourselves. Climbers are often like that.
Again, belief and proof are two different things. Religious beliefs and dogma are not falsifiable, and so not susceptible to rational discussion. Theologians and philosophers have tied themselves in knots about this for millenia, without result.
ST is, after all, a climbing-related site. It is never out of order for someone to respond to any religious, or other OT thread, by saying it doesn't belong.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!