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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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About like bonin' said, it's kind of all in the belay hand. You have to be able to lock off, pay out slack, or take in slack independently - it's quite awkward at first or if you haven't done it in awhile. I used doubles more back East than out this way. I typically always do alternate clips and then let the belayer know which rope I'm currently on. I do agree with Dirt that it's better to be shown what's up with them by someone experienced if at all possible...
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Karl Aguilar
climber
san francisco, ca
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Mar 22, 2007 - 09:59pm PT
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Dirt,
I don't think people are encouraging "newbies" to go kill themselves. I just think people are saying that it's not brain surgery either. It's always better to learn from someone else. However, you better research it for yourself first so you can know that the other person is giving you good advice. The original poster was just asking a question in reguards to different flaking / feeding systems. It seems as if he's been using double ropes already and wants to know what other people do. I think that is reasonable and so is telling him your system. I would not assume that everyone who asks questions is a "gumby" and that everyone who does things differently (than you) is reckless.
I think the mistake is asking on an open forum. If ten people answer, your likely to get 12 opinions. After that it's his turn to figure out what is best and safest for him.
P.S. How do define a "long fall"? I guess decking is the longest.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 22, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
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Decking is absolutely NOT the longest.
I have seen people deck from 8 - 10 feet in bouldering and wind up with an angulated fracture though.
One friend well known in NC climbing fell a full rope length factor 2 300 footer on a 50 meter rope. I'd call that a really long fall.
THE OP did not sound like he knew anything about doubles to me. if you have to ask how to stack em, and you are already having a lot of trouble with a spaghetti pile , then I'd say you don't know much about doubles.
Pooh-pooh it all you want, but just let one of those thin ropes start slipping though your hand, or grab the wrong one and there will be hell to pay. Although the leader had the easier time, now he's got two ropes to keep out from behind his legs and feet, but hten I guess most of you like the added drama of the potential upside down and backwards fall.
If you think I'm irate, fine. I don't like accident scenes. They ruin everyone's day. Rock climbing is as safe as you make it. Fvcking around with doubles when you don't know what you're doing is asking for trouble.
You probably think rappelling is simple too, and yet every year, people screw up and die rappelling. Some are noobs and some are experienced, but either way, when you screw up, you're done.
YOu'd think belaying is simple too I guess, but I've seen someone on this site fail to get the rope thought the biner when putting someone on belay.
So anyway, why add more risk than you have to? It's not too hard to find someone who knows doubles and learn from them.
BTW, ANAM = Accidents in NOrth American Moutaineering-- the yearly book that little caughtinzipper was wondering if he should bother to read a while back.
dingus, like my wrath means anything. You still make the best trolls though.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Mar 22, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Dirt , I think you have taken one to many lead falls off your couch. Stop being such a drag, the guy could be a 5.14 climber for all you know.
Best bet is to stuff the ropes onto a pile at your feet, flaking them over your daisy works once you get the hang but is a pain. If you can stuff the ropes together then you will not have as many problems with them tangling. Once you get good at the rope stuff you can even flip the pile (tricky) and lead in a block, etc.
Good luck and don't die...we don't want to hear the Dirt telling us "TOLD YA SO!!!"
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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Mar 22, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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I stack my doubles separately 65% of the time; I find it much easier to do since they came out with the reverso so that I can fix the inevitable littler overlaps and uneven loops and whatnot with both hands whenever my partner stops to take out gear. I usually do it over my leg.
The rest of the time they go together because either I'm too tired/cold to deal with keeping them seperate, or the belay's too cramped, or my partner's climbing too quickly for me to do it neatly enough, or whatever...
But this is just me.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 23, 2007 - 12:23am PT
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Kevster, bite me, on your way back to rc.dummies. My guess is that you don't know sh!t from shinola when it comes to injuries in climbing, and dealing with them.
Dingus, I know you am what you am, and that's all that you am.
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goatboywonder
Trad climber
Iowa City, IA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2007 - 11:29am PT
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Cripes! I thought this was a pretty reasonable question. Dirt, sorry to get you so riled up.
FYI, when it comes to single rope trad climbing, I am not a noob. Been doing it for 10+ years. Also, I live in Iowa, the land of limited alpine climbers. So, finding someone to teach me the ropes (pun intended) is not as trivial as you may expect. Here in Iowa we only have sport climbs (well, there are some crappy trad lines but we won't get into that) so I have been practicing my double technique on sport routes and it just seems like rope management is the crux to double ropes. I have been experimenting with different ways of stacking and just wondered if anyone else has an opinion about it. Here is what I have come up with.
-Party of 3: stack them separately because when you are bringing the other two up, they usually climb at different rates, thus making it hard to stack together.
-Party of 2: Treat it as one rope.
Feel free to opine.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 23, 2007 - 11:37am PT
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the milktoast is my only log in.
Other than LEB of course.
And Sunshine McGillicuddy?
But I digress.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 23, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Goatboy, it wasnt your post that riled me, it was all the poor advice you got.
Best thing in your situation would be to hire a guide for a day who uses doubles and can show you all the tricks.
Single ropes are so different from doubles, hear me now and believe it later , you have no idea what you're getting into if you think your single rope experience will do you much good with doubles.
You never did say what diameter ropes or what length you got. YOU didn't say what sort of sheath they have. Bringing up two seconds on one thin double each could be a disaster on a winding route with sharp rock. For example, the PMI verglass, a fine set of 8.1, good for twin or double, will abraid quickly if it drags and stretches over an edge repeatedly. I had to cut a section off the end of one mine for that reason.
If you don't want to listen to me, listen to Heayje, who also advised you to find someone who knows doubles.
You might also look for Rgold's opinion on catching long falls on thin ropes and what devices to use.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 23, 2007 - 12:30pm PT
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I swear, to hear dirt ramble, using doubles must be the most complex sh#t ever.
I'm uh, going to have to disagree with the advice that someone who's been climbing for 10 years should hire a guide to show them how to manage doubles.
hell dirt, he's been climbing twice as long as you!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 23, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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Caughtinzipper, no, he hasn't. And YOU of all people, should STFU, moron. YOU didn't even start thinking about serious issues in climbing til recently. YOu sort of caught yourself on this wiht your idiotic posts along the lines of "should I read anam?".
Enough of your BS, back under your rock where you belong, doof.
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Trad climber
Sittin' on the dock by the bay...
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Mar 23, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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Somebody needs a hug.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Mar 23, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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I've actually never used double ropes for technical rock climbing - only for ice climbing, and that for about three seasons. I started out following on them, in parties of two or three, but have also led.
At first I used an ATC-XP, but have also used a reverso or reversino depending on the rope diameter. Last spring I started using an ATC Guide though (at first I was skeptical, but now it's what I use almost all the time).
Here is a dumb question : is there anything different you'd recommend for trad climbing with doubles vs. ice climbing ? I mean, besides not using ice screws on nice dry rock :)
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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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Mar 23, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
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i've done it both ways. stack together and seperate. new ropes get some long rapps on them and work the kinks out.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 23, 2007 - 01:15pm PT
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serious issues in climbing?
that's a good one. at the top of the list: Double Rope Management; catching meatbombs and stacking bodies like cordwood.
And I'll betcha a lot of climbers don't read ANAM. I am well aware that there are lots of exciting ways to get hurt and die. I don't have that morbid curiousity...
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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Mar 23, 2007 - 01:35pm PT
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I switched from single to double ropes about 8 years ago and I now use doubles for everything but aid. Using both AT and AT-XP devices (my wife uses a stich plate but she's seriously trad). Sure, it helps to have someone show you how it works; I did. Belaying takes more getting used to particularly when you have to take in on one rope and pay out on the other as the leader moves past a piece. Probably harder still is leading without twisting the ropes. Think of keeping one to the left and one to the right and make sure that you take the rope that you are about to clip from the correct side as you grab it below you. All of those great low drag advantages go out the window if you get one rope around the other (voice of experience :-).
I usually stack them together on a multi-pitch, but periodically flake them separately where there's room on a ledge. The newer thiner double ropes have more of a tendency to twist and tangle. Separating them is easiest with two people, each pulling one rope at the same speed from the top of the pile.
As mentioned above: have an extra 'biner for the rappel. On multi-pitch rappels thread the rope for the next rappel as you are pulling down the last one. You probably already do this but with pulling twice the rope length it helps keep things apart. And makes for a faster setup for the next one.
Unnecessary "bonehead tip (TM Fish)" Don't buy double ropes of the same color.
Cheers,
Roy
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 23, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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Roy, it's funny you mentioend that about the same color. When I bought my first PMI verglass, I bought spool ends, so they sent me two-- but they were the same color. I guess they thought I was going to use em for twins maybe but still. So I called em adn said, hey, doubles the same color?? So they send me another one free, but it is all goffed up in the middle, goofy weaving or something, it won't act right and is stiff in places. so I call em again, and say hey, this rope is screwed up, and they send me one more spool end, finally, a good one of a different color.
So for my 100 bucks, since they didn't want to have me send anything back, I got three good ropes and one to cut up into accessory cord. Of course that set is only about 135 feet long, but that's fine for single pitch. And they are really light.
I just wish Wootles woud design a thin double rope with 12 falls, a good catch and a cut proof sheath. He keeps laughing when I ask k for this.
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the_don
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Mar 23, 2007 - 02:34pm PT
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Separating them is easiest with two people, each pulling one rope at the same speed from the top of the pile.
This is a good tip.
d#@&%eineye, listen up. The first time I belayed someone on doubles, it was my third time ever lead belaying, and his first time leading on doubles. And I was hungover as sh#t to boot. You know what? I lived. So did he. This isn't rocket science, for christ's sake. A little common sense goes a long way in avoiding disaster.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 23, 2007 - 02:36pm PT
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This thread is ghey...
"the end is near... he's coming... you're all going to die"
This reminds me of those sayings, "A billion __ cant be wrong".
Do what you feel is best for yourself, goatboay. If you think you'd like personal instruction, cool. Doubles aren't that hard to use. You're not going to kill anyone or get killed. People were belaying doubles using a regular ATC for a LONG time before the new versions came out. When rapping, you'll want to follow the advice above, when using thin lines.
Cheers!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Mar 23, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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If you are having real problems keeping your doubles from tangling, it could be that you have some bad ropes. A couple years ago I bought an expensive set of 8.8's, and despite many years experience climbing with doubles I could not get these ropes up a climb without major snarlfests at each belay. I sent them back to the retailer, who kindly replaced them with a newer model from the same maker. No more problems (fyi the retailer was gearexpress.com, they rock.)
A few times, doing really dicey one pitch routes with doubles, I have had one belayer for each cord. This is great because you get really good service, but the downside is you have to buy twice as many beers end of day...
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