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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
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^^^^
my legal research consisted of reading reddit... ha! but the hivemind did, at one point, come to the same consensual conclusion that you did: prior to boarding a carrier can refuse a seat even if you have a ticket, but once they've taken that ticket unless you're breaking some law [by being a threat to staff or other passengers for example] they have no right to throw you off...
so far i have seen no one be able to dispute this replete with a referential citation...
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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^^^^
quite possibly.
though, i suspect there are some much smarter lawyers than either you or i, building an argument as to why your logic is mistaken, right now as we speak/write.
and if united lets this goto court, and i'm sure they will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't, then i'd also bet you we will, among other definitive rulings, find out if an airline can with [reasonable] force remove an otherwise compliant and paying customer who has already been allowed to board.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 14, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
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No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated under this part.
Is it a crewmember's duty to kick off a lawfully boarded passenger?
You are making some assumptions--possibly correct but not self-evident.
Did the pilot order that Dr. Dao leave? Possibly, but I'm not sure I've seen that reported.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 14, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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The only wiggle room is that the plane was still at the gate and the door was still open. However, given one is not allowed to board unless the captain and crew are already there, I'm pretty sure that won't help.
If the flight attendant, upon captain's orders, tells a passenger to leave the plane and that person refuses, that person is violating federal law by interfering with a flight crew in the course of their duties.
I think it would be difficult to ask a passenger to leave the plane, if the door was not open. It would also be difficult to do if the plane is at flight altitude........
:)
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John M
climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
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that is addressed in the article I posted.
"This is not a denied boarding incident, which is covered by the contract; this man was already boarded. This is not an oversold incident, as provided for by the contract; this airplane was not oversold - every passenger was ticketed and had a seat.
"This was not a situation where the passenger was unruly, committed a criminal act, interfered with the flight crew, was incapable of being a passenger by himself or anything of that nature, obviously until they attempted to physically throw him off the airplane.
"So to me, United Airlines breached their own contract of carriage."
I don't really know, but I'm betting they try really hard to settle because this is a publicity nightmare.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
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aiight DMT... now you have me doing unpaid actual research.
here is united airline's contract of carriage.
as this is unpaid, i will admit i skimmed, but in skimming two parts caught my eye:
Rule 21: lays out the reasons why united airlines "shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:"
i read through the list, and there is nothing definitive on that list, that i am seeing, that mr. dao was in transgression of.
Rule 25: covers the ins and outs of denial of boarding. there is nothing in there, that i am seeing, that explicitly says that united has a right to rescind their allowing someone to board and then more importantly to enforce that decision by force. ie. it clearly lays out that united has the right to deny someone boarding. it doesn't say they can force you off the plane after they have already allowed you to board, only due to overbooking.
as per your examples:
1. if a new plane arrived and it was smaller, one would have to reboard the new plane and this would fall under Rule 25, denial of boarding, which they have every right to do.
2. if people arrived late and had a connector so had priority on an already completely booked flight: united can certainly request that people who have already boarded give up their seats as per the protocols outlined in Rule 25. they can also refuse boarding to people who haven't already boarded but do have a ticket, also as per Rule 25. i see nothing that says if they've allowed a person to board that they have the right to physically remove you from the plane solely due to overbooking...
because that is what makes this interesting. sure, all carriers have a right to not allow you onto the plane, due to overbooking or just about any ole reason. the question is are they really prison ships, as you've argued, where they can physically enforce whatever whim they make, including physically enforcing the rescinding of previously made decisions regarding allowing someone to board, due only to overbooking?
i'm not seeing it in the contract. and even if it's there, i suspect a good [hell, the bad ones too] lawyer will be arguing like i am...
because if it is there, i'm not seeing it as being explicit, like a good contract should be.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
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DMT When you walk down the jetway you are surrendering your freedom. Those planes are (small) prison cells. Fighting with air marshals is not going to produce happiness. If they tell you to get off the plane, sorry but you gotta get off the plane.
I feel sad that the guy couldn't figure it out without getting hurt. If it is your car and you had to throw someone off you wouldn't think twice. It's their plane and their rules. Don't fly if you don't want to play by their rules.
Or get upset it's subsidized with you tax dollars and get drug off?
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
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capseeboy:
fortunately [this part of] the world doesn't work that way...
a customer paid money.
there is a contract in place.
the terms of that contract govern both parties.
most importantly and fortunately: we don't live in somalia just yet.
[ie. this ain't no private car with no court enforceable contracts in place.]
as such if there is a case to be made, then united is about to parse some nuance for us... that is assuming mr. dao isn't in need of cash and wants to prove a point by taking this through the courts [and forego the ridiculous cash settlement in combination with a nda that he is certainly going to be repeatedly offered].
and don't worry JB... i try to keep the faith that all of us are open to a bit of persuasion now and again... even me... ha!
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
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nahOOO [ie. this ain't no private car with no court enforceable contracts in place.]
You give up your rights when you willingly submit to a body search before boarding. But you allow it for the privilege of flying. My point is, it's their plane, your contract is toilet paper. They call the shots in THEIR space. You don't listen and you will get hurt. They are the thugs. You will lose. Use your reasoning. It will serve your health better then your belief in enforceable contracts after your skull is split open while protesting.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
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capseeboy wrote: "You will lose. Use your reasoning. It will serve your health better then your beliefs in enforceable contracts after your skull is split open while protesting."
two points:
1. tell that to mr. dao after he has either settled for millions or becomes one of united's newest shareholders due to a court decision... ;)
2. do you always let people fUck you when you agree to terms on a contract?
or just when it's an airline?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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I've flew a lot of miles in my 35 years overseas and the two worst airlines I ever experienced were Syrian Arab Airways and United. Granted, I never had the nerve to fly Aeroflot.
What I really detested about United was how they served good food and free booze on the western side of the dateline because that was international regulation and the Japanese would accept no less. As soon as we crossed over into American air space however, it was sandwiches, $5 for a beer and a free sneer with it. By the time I had to fly from the west coast to Colorado, it was peanuts and they didn't even bother to sneer.
Then there was the flight back to Japan when we sat for three hours in 95 degree heat on the Denver runway and they wouldn't let us off or tell us when the plane would be fixed, Finally they brought a big air hose in and pumped cool air in that way because there were several babies turning beet red and screaming. That made me late for my connecting flight in San Francisco so I had to run for miles dragging my luggage behind me. Then they were so late arriving in Tokyo at Narita that we had to run for miles through that airport and be bussed to Haneda where we ran through that airport to catch the last flight to Okinawa. Altogether a 21 hour horror flight.
Nothing compares to the Continental flight though which left San Francisco 3 hours late after repairing the plane, 6 hours late from Hawaii after repairing it again and 8 hours late from Guam. That was a 32 hour horror show. They lost their government contract after that fiasco and no longer flew across the Pacific. The difference though, is that Continental screwed up once like that and United did on every flight.
After that, I flew all Nippn Airways back and forth. Nary a problem and quality Japanese service all the way.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
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2. do you always let people fUck you when you agree to terms on a contract?
The guy thats right doesn't always win. They sometimes end up shot and nobody is persecuted.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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capseeboy: no disagreement there. and i'll give you this: if i was mr. dao, i almost certainly would have left, for exactly the reasons you've been arguing. sometimes it ain't worth the fight.
that's cause usually they don't bust your teeth out, cause facial reconstruction and create viral outrage... usually you just get your time wasted with garden variety disrespect and/or harassment.
otoh, in this case, i suspect, mr. dao is probably going to come out of this just fine in the long run.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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Just see how stoopid the gross materialists make this world ........
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
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You do have a choice in airlines and
We thank you for choosing PSA
PSA Jets roundball squad.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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I remain confused by the police involved getting a free pass.
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
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Thought I was getting on a red eye flight...turned into a black eye instead.
Flying the friendly skies!!!
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 15, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
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I think the guy who's shot is persecuted and the one who holds the contract is never prosecuted...
Thank you for discombobulating my cornfuzzion.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 15, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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It's funny, when I was a professional dirtbagger I used to pray to be the guy kicked off the plane in return for cash or flight miles. I remember breaking out the sleeping bags and spending the night on the floor at LAX in return for free round-trip passage on the trip of my choice. Of course, this was back in the 70's, long before flying became the survival situation that it is today. Last time I flew was about a year ago on Delta, I flew first class only to discover that even first class is pretty bleak...but at least I had a roomy seat.
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