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Greg Barnes
climber
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I talked with Ron about rebolting Space Babble about 5 years ago, but he said he might go do it himself and that I shouldn't bother. Looks like it's still bad bolts, but Ron definitely mentioned that he wanted good belays and that to do that, bolts might need to be added at certain belay(s). Obviously rebolters can talk to him again, but that was his view as of a few years back.
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WBraun
climber
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I was climbing with Kauk today and he definitely wants the belay bolts bomber.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kevin (and Ron via Greg and Werner), thanks for the permission on the new belay bolts. It will become safe to rap on. We won't put on big chains or massive hangers or anything other than rings.
I presume by "bomber" belay bolts that (2) 3/8" x 2.25" Powers stainless 5-piece are good. If not, let me know. (Greg sent Bruce and I a nice box of these recently). These bolts can handle very high loads yet do not appear "massive".
I'll check the original piton placements, too, as per Randy's topo. I'll take some photos and look at clean gear placements (I'll scrub a little as required). We'll report back with what we find, so Steve will get the feedback as well. If there are fixed pins in place, we'll test and reset them. We won't add any, since Terry and Werner did it in '87 on clean gear.
We'll go up there in February or March, when it's a bit warmer and the days are longer.
I'd prefer to just do it, instead of announcing a detailed plan in advance like this. But it has been very helpful to consider the alternatives with people who have climbed it before, and get permission to replace bolts and add the few belay bolts.
It will not turn into a trade route - it will still have all the runouts and hard climbing. There might be a few more people who rap down it, but probably not many.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kevin,
It's not hard to rap down the route and replace bolts, so Bruce and I are happy to help out. We'll fill you in on exactly what we find, so sure, you and Steve can do more if you'd like (check w/ Ron, of course).
Thank you and Ron for having the vision and the talent to establish the route in the first place. It's the stuff that dreams are made of.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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I think it's a great idea to rebolt Space Babble. It might restore some stoke for this and other routes on Middle besides the already rebolted and far easier (but still clasic) Stoners.
Reading all these post on Space Babble I could kick myself for never climbing what may be the best of them all.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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This thread is a real inspiration about using this communication medium to resolve community issues in a imaginative and consensual manner. I think it's great that Clint's going to fix the bolts, and fantastic that Steve Grossman has a perfect Iconic route to establish a new vision of maintaining pin protected pitches while holding fast to their original flavor.
Good for everybody.
And, in this case, those would would desire a more santized experience can pay the price of admission by climbing Kor Beck and play on Space Babble on the way down. All the moves, no permanent damage, and the route gets enjoyed.
Bircheff Williams hardly get's climbed past it's first pitch, but I did the whole thing once. It would be better to rap Space Babble. It's a pretty fine route itself and, for Middle, pretty reasonably protected. Any body know how to climb the third pitch? or is it fourth? You choose between a wedgy corner that blanks out near the top with a bolt and a splitter grassy groove that starts dicey and gets better. I wedged up the corner and then felt checkmated.
Regards to all. Space Babble will live again, and it really is one of the best unsung routes around.
Peace
Karl
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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the road to Space Babble...
1) Stop doing ASCA routes
2) Get dumped by your girl/boy friend
3) Start drinking "OLDE ENGLISH 800"
4) Grow some BALLS and quit whining about runouts and your precious bolts
5) stay on your feet...
Viola- your ready for Space Babble! (or any other Middle slab route)
P.S. Replacing the pins with bolts would be sacrelidge
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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For those who haven't met him, Coiler's has put a lot of local time in and has often had concerns about bolting and has sometimes taken those concerns into action.
So Coiler, given the dicussion here, including the FA input, what's your opinion on dealing with pin protected freeclimbing where repeated placements would likely break or scar features? (Fragile flakes and such) and also for fixed pin placements for free climbing in general.
Make sure you read and understand what Steve Grossman is proposing by looking at the pin-bolt protypes and discussion at the end of the "Welcome Kevin Worral" thread.
Would you support the solutions that a competent FA team approved or chop anyway?
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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FYI if you guys go up by way of Kor Beck....
I was looking at the topo last night, and it showed the route traversing into Kor Beck at a tree, but it didn't indicate which tree. The upper tree of the two shown at belays in the middle of the route was completely wiped out by the big rock fall a few years ago. I had to keep going for another 130 feet or so until I could get to a suitable belay (so the resulting pitch was about 270). I don't know if this goofs up the rapping plan?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Clint, how were you planning to set up the bolt stations? I hate to beat the all stainless drum again but it is important. I mentioned earlier that I still have lots of ss SMC hangers that I would be happy to donate to this project. Maintaining the original favor of the protection bolts is a clear priority which is why I made the Leeper replica hangers. The belays are a separate matter with a slightly different set of concerns. I have 1/2" stainless chain and the ability to have it welded easily. I have been working on anchors for use on the Nose rappel line that may not be transferrable in look and feel. To keep costs down overall, I have been striving to avoid stainless quick links or pin shackles to connect the bolt hanger and wearing components. The Nose anchors that I have worked out utilize two hole stainless plate hangers as mentioned in the "Bolts from the wayback machine" thread. These anchors are clearly acceptable for the areas where the Rohr descent line departs from the climbing route. Using the same anchor for belay stations on the Nose will probably be more controversial with respect to visual impact and historic feel. I will post a pic of this setup once I have a couple in hand.
The concept of SB as a descent line is novel but good. Very little to hang a rope on up there! A lot of the mystery will be gone from this section of wall, if you can check it all out ahead of time but I doubt that Space Babble will consequently become a trade route.A lot to consider.......
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Here is my marked up topo from 1995 (rapping/toproping), showing the fixed pitons that we found in place at that time. They match several shown in Randy's earlier topo. The topo below is modified from the 1987 Meyers & Reid guidebook. In the 1994 edition, there are two small changes on p2 (adding "f.p." in the middle of the LFC) and putting an arrow below the 5.10c indicating it is lower, closer to the first bolt).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Melissa, here is my marked up topo from 1995, showing how we rapped from the Kor-Beck down into Space Babble. The key anchor we used was halfway up pitch 4 of the Kor-Beck, at a fixed nut and pin.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
Yes, we will use all stainless on the belay stations and protection bolts/hangers. The plan is to use the Powers SS 3/8" x 2.25" "five-piece" bolts, with Petzl Coeur hangers. These hangers are smaller than the usual Metolius or Fixe. I haven't discussed exactly with Bruce the type of SS rings, but probably best would be to use a SS quicklink (5/16" x 1.5" x 2.75" Maillon Rapide) and one 3/8" chain link. An alternative to the chain link is a 3/8" x 2.2" SS welded ring, but this is larger, so I thought the chain link would be a nice, less massive solution. The cost of the SS quicklinks for just these few anchors is not a problem.
Another alternative is a Fixe ring hanger, which is only 2 pieces instead of 3, but it does not look as much like the original hangers on the route.
I will put some more photos up (probably this weekend) of the alternatives, so people can look them over. There could definitely be some things you could improve upon, with your bending and welding capabilities.
I have used the SMC SS (thick) hangers in the past for several routes and I agree they are quite strong; also nice and small. They are smaller than the Petzl Coeur, so they could be a good choice. There is not as much space for clipping them above the quicklink, though. Some photo comparisons should make this easier to see.
For the Nose rappel route, you might enjoy talking to Tom Rohrer, if you haven't already. He is active in SS replacement, and I have his email address around somewhere. I ran into him a couple of years ago at El Cap Meadow, and he showed some of his setup.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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No offense to my good friends George and Donny, but the topo I drew back 76 is much more accurate than the one shown in the guide. Exact number of pins and bolts are shown. Typically, I would draw topos of all routes I did in Yosemite and Tuolumne immediately afterwards. If there are any variances between what is currently present and my topo it is because pins have disappeared. There was no bolt on pitch 4 as shown on the guide topo.
I like the bolt pin idea, and Steve's prototypes are quite amazing. The retention of the "retro" look and feel is an important advance in thinking about preserving older climbs.
They could have applications far afield from just Yosemite.
One would hope that the idea of preserving routes as part of our climbing history (while ensuring the fixed gear is lasting and solid) will catch on. Perhaps this progressive view will stem the popular tide which judge a route solely by how accessible it may be to the great unwashed, or the number of ascent it sees every season.
If the route does have its hardware updated, perhaps I'll consider doing it again before I'm too old and feeble of mind.
I'm not sure if Coiler has done the route, but if not .... well you know where I'm going.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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hey, sorry for asking about the plot in the middle, but can anyone point me in the direction of more info about steve's piton things? they sound interesting. photos would be cool.
thanx
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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caughtinside,
The direct link to Steve's post with the photos and description of the pinbolts is:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=252358&msg=288897#msg288897
It may not load direct to his post, though, due to all the other photos on that page that have to load first.
Here is one of Steve's pinbolt photos:
(2 SS pinbolts at top, Leeper and SS replica Leeper hangers at bottom)
One way of thinking about it is a fixed piton that won't loosen and fall out. Another way of thinking about it is a bolt, but which can only be placed right where a piton would fit into a crack. Sort of a "bolt with restrictions" - it would not be used in the middle of a face with no crack.
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WBraun
climber
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Clint
That is a pretty cool idea, (pin bolt). Pretty damn cool!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Werner,
Yes, it's a pretty interesting idea. And just to make sure there's no confusion, it's Steve Grossman's idea (and his prototypes above), not mine.
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