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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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You missed my point. I was not referring to the NPS budget as the huge subsidy, but the $12 campsite fee.
IN THAT CONTEXT, you would have to ask why, by your argument, the entire population should be paying money to subsidize the ENTERTAINMENT of a small group. I can think of arguments why, but those discussions should actually be had. But back to your argument, the taxation is NOT spread over every man/woman/child, it is spread only over income tax payers, and diverted from essential services.
I guess I did miss your point. Are you absolutely sure that the 12 dollar fee does not pay the service, or are you just blowing air? The federal budget was almost 4 trillion and the NPS "subsidy" you are so fond of talking about was was about 3 billion. That's less than one-thousandth of your federal tax bill. If you paid 20,000 in federal taxes, about 16 dollars went to the NPS. How much of that went to "subsidize" camping in City of Rocks? Maybe none? By chance if it was a few pennies of your tax bill, I'll cover you (I mean it) Are you really serious?
FYI, as I said before, we had no problem paying the fee. I don't consider this fee a "subsidy", I considered a very good sevice for a very good (reasonable) price. I hope you don't have a problem with the services that I'm willing to freely pay for?. Anyways, it's certainly much better than the "no climbing on our property" service offered by the local private property owners.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 23, 2016 - 06:39am PT
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Oh, Jody, I forgot. You're the only one that uses national parks.
my bad.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:03am PT
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The NPS creates tourist attractions. I prefer the NFS and BLM. Even logging and mining don't permanently change the character of the areas, unlike road, park, and trail building. On saturday I was hiking on an unmaintained trail (the best kind) in RMNP. As an older woman descended with her trekking poles, I stepped about a foot off the trail for her. In response I got a lecture about how it was illegal to step off the trails. Little did she know, apparently, that if she'd gone another mile or so, the trail she was on would disappear into a sea of talus with no cairns, to reach a popular summit (Ypsilon). Why did she think this? Well, all the parking lots have signs warning visitors not to go off the trail. In our state and county parks, such as the flatirons, it is apparently illegal to go off the trails. What they did in the flatirons is to block off the trails that go up natural ridgelines, replacing them with flatter trails that you could drive a jeep on. There is apparently a guidebook, hard to find now, to the old ridgeline trails.
Example #2: backcountry camping in national parks normally means a ranger puts in you a campsite that is not accessible by road. It is still going to be a concentrated area with every campsite full. On NFS land, backcountry camping means anywhere you want, at least 100' from a stream or lake, and you only need to get a permit during certain months of the year. Now, the NFS has recently gotten into the tourism business, in places like Mt Evans, by charging entrance and camping fees, and so does the BLM. I think we have enough of these areas, which are really developed for harley davidsons and family outings. The population in Colorado is rapidly increasing and we have to put more priority on preservation. That's my 2 cents, feel free to disagree!
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:09am PT
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I agree, but it didn't make it any less irritating. It is indicative of what seems to be an ever more prevalent attitude by some employees that they are the only ones with enough knowledge to enjoy the outdoors and everybody else is an idiot who is one step away from killing themselves if it weren't for park employees babysitting them. (See Reilly's story)
Jody, you are a police officer and you do not like getting safety lectures from know-it-alls in a uniform? lol!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:17am PT
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Jody, you are a police officer and you do not like getting safety lectures from know-it-alls in a uniform? lol!
Hypocrisy is Jody's middle name.
Curt
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:27am PT
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God this is too much. Jody the police officer getting mad that he might have to follow other people's rules and be subject to their oversight and discretion.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:40am PT
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I find this criticism pretty amusing, AND HYPOCRITICAL CURT...coming from the most rebellious, anti-authority group of people I have ever been acquainted with, climbers.
Oh, I see. I out you for being hypocritical (which you are) so you turn around and call me hypocritical. How original. The difference is--I am not. I don't bitch about following the rules established for using public lands.
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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These stupid finger wagging supertopo clowns like curt and HDJ are a joke.
I was on EL Cap rescue once ready to lower 180 pounds of rope to a ledge 300 feet further down
when a safety officer clown comes up to me and tells me I can't rappel with the petzl stop because they've never seen one.
I've only used them for over 20 years all over the world on professional rigging jobs.
Meanwhile this dipsh!t has their climbing harness on backwards.
Of course I told em to fuk off ......
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:51am PT
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"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."
 Mark Twain
Curt
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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Actually, the LAST thing I want is MORE employees at those parks. The "upkeep" of the parks is of low importance to me I don't need interpretative rangers, backcountry rangers, or anybody else to hold my hand while I am there. The fewer employees and more primitive the park...all the better.
I guess you won't be attending Facelift this year.
Wtf, Jody. It's not about you.
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:57am PT
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Mr. Braun, why are you so angry all the time? Don't you live in Yosemite?
I can see where Jody is coming from. I care about the upkeep, but I'd rather have less services and more primitive setting in the parks. All the theatres and interpretive stuff (except maybe in places that are all about this historic element instead of the natural, like Abe Lincoln home, or mesa verde and chaco).
A $17 campsite is way too expensive for poor people, and this should be everyone's parks, not just for rich people in RVs that don't even get out in nature just sit around a fire ring, and go to shops and stuff.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:58am PT
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I guess you won't be attending Facelift this year.
Wtf, Jody. It's not about you.
This point is lost on Jody, in any discussion.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:00am PT
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Mr. Braun, why are you so angry all the time? Don't you live in Yosemite?
Probably too many headfirst falls without a helmet.
Curt
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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That's not nice Curt, isn't he the longtime rescue member? Maybe its just a bad week, I'm having a not too great one so far, and the coffee is awful this morning, like drinking used motor oil. So I'm a little cranky too.
Going to the woods used to be a low cost way to have some recreation. Just gas to get there, maybe buy some worms for fishing or something. If you're making $10 an hour, a $20 campsite kind of locks you out of the place.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:07am PT
DMT, I understand that, but I am still not sure how 10b thinks I am selfish for wanting more solitude.
Where did I say you were selfish?
Don't put words in comments I didn't make.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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HDDJ, that might be a valid criticism if you knew how I did my job. However, since you don't then your criticism is erroneous. Half the laws and regulations in the PC and VC were stupid and I treated them accordingly.
So you're mad because other people are doing their job when you wouldn't?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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DMT, I understand that, but I am still not sure how 10b thinks I am selfish for wanting more solitude.
Jody doesn't get it again. Shocking.
Where did I say you were selfish?
Don't put words in comments I didn't make.
This is what Jody does--twisting what you actually say into something different that fits with his narrative. If you intend to "debate" Jody, get used to it.
Curt
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:18am PT
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Welcome to a Jody fever dream, wherein a college kid giving the requisite low impact camping spiel to obtain a backcountry permit is a "jack booted thug."
Take to the internet! The outrage! The conceit!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:21am PT
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I think he's referring to the fact that the park systems are owned by we the people and we the people have more than one perspective ie 'its not about you.'
But DMT, only Jody's perspective matters. Haven't you been paying attention? :-)
Curt
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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Ted Cruz!
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