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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 21, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/08/18/confusion-at-every-level-of-the-park-service/
‘Confusion at every level’ of the Park Service
I don't understand this, below. You can be sure that he keeps his pension. Odds are that this is only what we know about. His house and car was used in the commission of this crime, they should be confiscated.
I don't agree with lengthy prison sentences for this, he is no violence risk, and I see no reason to house him on the taxpayer dime. But this is not anywhere enough.
Thomas A. Munson is a former Effigy Mounds superintendent who has been held accountable, albeit long after his criminal deeds. In 1990, he stole remains of 41 Native Americans, more than 2,100 individual pieces, then concealed them in garbage bags in cardboard boxes in his garage. He was sentenced last month to 10 weekends in jail, 12 months of home confinement, plus probation and more than $100,000 in restitution.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Aug 21, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
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If they would just stop building stuff, they'd bulldoze over less Indian ruins too. NPS is too focused on developing tourist attractions, and not focused enough on preservation. Yosemite being the prime example.
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chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
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Aug 21, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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Jody has nailed it:
The NPS has been falling apart since the 70's. Ever since nutty tree-huggers started taking over it has been going downhill. The problem with Yosemite is those damn libtards! Thanks, Obama!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:33am PT
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Capitalism is what has killed the NPS
Followed by he criminals who visit the parks
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:53am PT
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Speaking of the NPS, my whole family was truly impressed with the efforts of the NPS at City of Rocks National Reserve. Not only was the service impressive (at 12 dollars a night for a nice campsite with easy advanced registration, clean bathrooms, garbage service, easily accesible water, free Wifi at the visitor's center, a well maintained trail system, etc.) the staff was friendly, courteous and helpful and the administration of the park seemed to be impeccable, maintaining a balance between giving users an unfettered and hassle-free experience while going the distance to maintain the integrity of the place.
If any of the people who want to whine about the NPS are offering a similar sevice for a similar price, let me know, we'll be happy to climb and camp in your backyard!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:14am PT
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More interpretive rangers than ever before. More parks. Expanding NPS.
The dismay that the Jody's feel is the death of their idiotic mindset. Dinosaurs hiding under their desks.
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c wilmot
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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the main issue with the NPS is the lack of funding and the inherant nepotism/corruption that comes with being in remote locations. while I loved many aspects of my time with the NPS, my memories of my time with them will always be tainted by the way they operate which is often criminal in nature
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:00am PT
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Look, it is simple. It is a bureaucracy like any other meaning that those
in management are only concerned about two things: expanding their personal
fiefdom and job security. If they can occasionally mesh those goals with
so-called higher minded goals that keep the tree huggers mollified then they
have accomplished their primary goals while looking good. The main trouble
is that as bureaucrats they will never stick their necks out to achieve
anything meaningful if it threatens those two sacrosanct tenets. The reason
they are 'under-funded' is because all those development projects cost so
much especially in comparison to providing interpretive programs and
preservation which don't provide the managers with, literally, concrete
monuments to their tenure.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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This underfunded agency is experiencing the same thing our public school teachers deal with everyday.
Low pay to nurture our most precious resources.
BTW, you can thank the litigation fees from special interest groups like THE CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY for draining our federal agencies of needed funds.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 11:07am PT
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Speaking of the NPS, my whole family was truly impressed with the efforts of the NPS at City of Rocks National Reserve. Not only was the service impressive (at 12 dollars a night for a nice campsite with easy advanced registration, clean bathrooms, garbage service, easily accesible water, free Wifi at the visitor's center, a well maintained trail system, etc.) the staff was friendly, courteous and helpful and the administration of the park seemed to be impeccable, maintaining a balance between giving users an unfettered and hassle-free experience while going the distance to maintain the integrity of the place.
Glad for your experience, but no one should be under any illusions that the services described could NEVER be supported by that fee. So there is a huge subsidy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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Jody, HaHaHaHa! The wife and I were headed over Kaweah Gap some years ago
late in September and ran into a backcountry ranger in her late 20's or
early 30's. We were at Hamilton Lakes and she pointed at the clouds above
and gravely intoned that we were likely to die if we proceeded with our
foolish endeavor which happened to be the same as hers. I launched
into a discourse on how it was quite apparent to this long time pilot that
the lapse rate was clearly far too low to support any meaningful vertical
development. Said discourse went completely over her pointed little head
yet she persisted with her dire warnings. It never occurred to me to ask
why she thought that she would survive but someone with my alpine resume
would not. It never rained a drop and we enjoyed a beautiful night camped
at the gap.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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Glad for your experience, but no one should be under any illusions that the services described could NEVER be supported by that fee. So there is a huge subsidy.
Divided up evenly among the US population, the National Park Service "subsidy" is less than 10 dollars a year per person. Have a family of four? You're contributing nearly 40 dollars a year to the NPS. And with this we got a good service for a cheap price. A service that, basically, no one else (except the government) is providing.
To kinda put this "huge" subsidy in perspective, if you divide up the cost of the 2008 Wall Street bailout evenly among the population, it comes to 2,000 dollars for every man, woman and child. Have a family of four? You spent 8,000 dollars to bail out Wall Street bankers who made a fortune bankrupting the country. And these Wall Street bankers are not providing any good camping services to dirtbag climbers at prime climbing locations for cheap prices.
I guess it all depends on your idea of a "huge" subsidy
(Edited to correct the subsidy to Wall Street bankers which was twice as big as I originally reported)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
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If they would just stop building stuff, they'd bulldoze over less Indian ruins too. NPS is too focused on developing tourist attractions, and not focused enough on preservation. Yosemite being the prime example.
To which Yosemite do you refer? The one that, in 1970, had almost twice as many campsites in Yosemite Valley as we have now, and had campsites at Glacier Point, Smokey Jack, Harden Lake, Porcupine Creek, Tenaya Lake, Soda Springs, and probably others I've forgotten, that it closed and didn't replace? The one that removed service stations at Camp Curry, Yosemite Village, Camp 4, Chinquapin and Tuolumne Meadows? The one that removed half the parking lots in the Valley? That NPS?
Jody and Reilly hit the target. My encounters with the NPS through the '70's were uniformly wonderful, and they treated us like people they wanted to serve, rather than like annoyances. While I still find the majority of encounters with NPS personnel positive -- and all of them so on Super Topo -- I've felt an increasing number that exude a contempt for visitors.
I think part of that is inevitable as we increase greatly the NPS areas of administration, without a correponding increase in funding. That, however, has been largely a byproduct of how we've increased that sphere of administration. If Congress added new National Monuments with the support of the people - particularly those living near the affected areas - I suspect there would be more popular support for funding those added Monuments. When Presidents do so unilaterally - over the objections of the locals, and without Congressional support - don't be surprised if popular support for funding dries up.
The supporters of the unilateral expansionism have themselves to blame for the funding problems.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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Divided up evenly among the US population, the National Park Service "subsidy" is less than 10 dollars a year per person. Have a family of four? You're contributing nearly 40 dollars a year to the NPS. And with this we got a good service for a cheap price. A service that, basically, no one else (except the government) is providing.
To kinda put this "huge" subsidy in perspective, if you divide up the cost of the 2008 Wall Street bailout evenly among the population, it comes to 2,000 dollars for every man, woman and child. Have a family of four? You spent 8,000 dollars to bail out Wall Street bankers who made a fortune bankrupting the country. And these Wall Street bankers are not providing any good camping services to dirtbag climbers at prime climbing locations for cheap prices.
I guess it all depends on your idea of a "huge" subsidy
(Edited to correct the subsidy to Wall Street bankers which was twice as big as I originally reported)
You missed my point. I was not referring to the NPS budget as the huge subsidy, but the $12 campsite fee.
IN THAT CONTEXT, you would have to ask why, by your argument, the entire population should be paying money to subsidize the ENTERTAINMENT of a small group. I can think of arguments why, but those discussions should actually be had. But back to your argument, the taxation is NOT spread over every man/woman/child, it is spread only over income tax payers, and diverted from essential services.
I am much more of a fan of dispersed camping, with no/little cost. We have vast lands available for this. I also favor developed campgrounds, but they should have price tags related to their development and maintenance costs.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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I am much more of a fan of dispersed camping, with no/little cost. We have vast lands available for this. I also favor developed campgrounds, but they should have price tags related to their development and maintenance costs.
Amen, Ken!
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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I've spent time the last 20 years working on trail crews, and as a volunteer wilderness ranger. Only on USFS, though, due to logistics.
About 10 years ago, I saw a dramatic change in philosophy, particularly at the Wilderness Manager level (folks that supervise wilderness rangers). Everyone a college boy, steeped in the concepts that man is apart from nature, and nature is to be protected from us.
Perhaps the best couple of things that illustrate what that translated into:
1. the wilderness rangers on that forest don't really get out into the field until about July 1 (they spend several weeks in training). I noticed that "feeder trails" into the wilderness were not taken care of, barring a disaster of some sort, by the wilderness program. Volunteers are not constrained by when a employment contract begins, so I looked into starting a program that (weather permitting) would start clearing feeder trails as early as May, to facilitate the early travelers into the backcountry, and get a start on the summer maintenance program.
The involved Wilderness Manager looked at me as though I was speaking Japanese, and said, in effect, "why would I want to help people get into the backcountry? They mess it up!"
2. The same Manager changed the recreational permit system, such that volunteer trail workers had to obtain a wilderness permit to enter. They were reserved for us well in advance. Volunteers are generally considered employees, such as for injuries, and their activities have previously been considered agency activities. Rangers do not need permits to enter the wilderness, because they are not recreating.....and neither are volunteers.
What this was about, when discussed with him, was an attempt to reduce the number of wilderness permits available on his wilderness, without having to go through the messy public process required to change the access level.
His stated position was that Wilderness areas are better off with no human penetration, and that he was not going to facilitate recreation. His rangers were converted to a regulation enforcement squad, rather than the ranger-naturalist of my youth, who existed to help people.
I found, in going to ranger conferences, that his attitude was becoming widespread.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:24pm PT
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Ken, that sounds pretty unpleasant, and would encourage me to live and regulate my activities apart from the people who consider man apart from nature.
But perhaps it is a reasonable response from folks managing the resources if usage is increasing and popular areas are getting trashed or beaten out. There sure are a lot of areas with no people to be found though.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
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Last time I went into the wilderness backpacking and actually made the mistake of getting a permit, I had to listen to a condescending speech from some seasonal college student regarding low-impact backcountry use. I had been backpacking in that particular area twice as long as she had even been alive.
Seems like we have a holier than thou attitude. Yes, I have suffered the same attitude, but then I realize that the person is only doing a job, and following the rules of said job.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:05pm PT
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The NPS budget is about .01 percent of the U.S. budget. They
have somewhere near an 11 to 12 billion dollar backlog in maintenance--
roads, trails, buildings, campgrounds, etc. etc. They hardly have enough
budget to hire seasonal employees anymore, say interpretive rangers or possibly cultural resource personnel. With that in mind, especially in
the year of the 100th anniversary of the NPS, parks are being loved to death, by larger and larger crowds every year.
Maybe some have had bad experiences with some staff in the parks. I've visited lots over the years and still do, and have never been treated disrespectfully or with an attitude that I didn't belong in 'their' park.
Considering the pay for most park personnel (they get paid in scenery, remember, it's not hard to see some might not be at the top of their game
all of the time.
(I'd love to pay a $10 campground fee--even with my senior pass, where I pay one half of the regular fee, I paid $17.50 for a campground at Redwood NP
last year, and had to pay extra for showers on top of that. But I will say the campgrounds there were in excellent condition and clean).
Instead of complaining about the NPS, why don't you write your congressman or senator and tell them to fund the agency fully, as they haven't for years.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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Ken, your post confirms what I have seen and suspected as an interested outsider. A few months ago I read through the entire draft of the latest management plan for the Sequoia/Kings Canyon designated wilderness. Early on it states that the permit system was put in place in the early 1970s due to the impact caused by the number of overnight visitors to the backcountry. It turns out though as you read on that the current number of overnight visitors is substantially lower than it was when they started requiring permits. In fact there's been a downward trend for quite awhile.
A reasonable person might suppose then that one of the management alternatives under consideration for possible adoption would be elimination of the permit system, or restricting it to areas like Whitney where there is a demonstrable need for controlling access. Oh no. Not even worth a mention. Some of the alternatives call for even lower quotas.
The reality is that once controls are in place, chances of them being dropped or loosened are basically nil. Jobs and budgets, after all, depend on them. When you get right down to it, the NPS is just another self-perpetuating bureaucracy with an attitude problem.
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