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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
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Reflectors sound like a good idea if you were really in a bind but here are a couple thoughts.
1. They are bound to get broken by people standing on them, clipping junk to them, leaning on them, etc.... Unless they are more of a flat/tape style rather than plastic. If over a several years, everybody (newbies) knew the raps were reflectored, it could lead to trouble for anybody if the reflectors weren't visible due to breakage or other reason. Basically it does somewhat enable the possibility of more problems with people who are relying on the reflectors.
2. Standardizing the lengths of the stations is a far better idea in my opinion. Making them all the same basic length would be ideal. basically having some of them set for 50 m ropes means many opportunities to guess where you are if you try using 60s. Guessing is what leads to problems. It definitely happened to us and we ended up coming down in the dark after trying to make sense of all the intermediate raps.
3. I am not one for adding signs all over the place but a single sign at the base of the first pitch stating that "ALL RAP STATIONS REQUIRE __M ROPES." I know this goes against the general adventure of climbing, but in such a highly trafficked area with climbers from all over the world.....many of them new......there is a bit of a public service responsibility that goes with the terrain also.
Cody's death appears to have been tragically just pilot error....... But I am all for improving the existing descent route as it has proven dangerous and somewhat confusing for many of us in the past, even those who have years of experience under our belts.
A big thanks to all those who are putting effort into this.
Scott
P.S. To all those who will poo poo and bah humbug the idea with the "what are we gonna do next, put a railing along the top!" comments I just want to point out that this isn't the backcountry, this isn't the DNB, its the most traveled long beginner route in the worlds most traveled national park and it starts out in a hotel parking lot. And climbers continue to die and get hurt on it. We can do better I think.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
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I guess we could just chop the thing.
In my mind the rap route exists therefore it might as well be done to the best possible standard.
I'm just musing the reflector idea and am really glad for the naysaying imput. I mean that. I cannot figure out a way to make the reflectors durable enough to be reliable when folks start relying on them. perhaps highway stuff but thats pretty permanent and large. It is the best argument against them.
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Eggstele
Trad climber
Kings Beach, Lake Tahoe
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
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Just a reminder...Climbing and rappelling IS dangerous! Good luck with figuring out how to keep it safe...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 09:58pm PT
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But glueing reflectors on an outdoor climb, seriously, what the hell are you thinking?
Hahaha LOL
That sounds so funny.
Maybe flashing battery operated photo cell turn on at night red led lights too?
There's people thrashing around in the dark on the last pitch of Selaginella Wall all the time too.
I see them on weekends at 10:30 at night headlamps looking everywhere while lost up there.
They need traffic signs there too.
Ho mannn ....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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Ok no reflectors! lol.. but removing offroute slings and anchors , replacing old bolts, and moving stations to better places does seem pretty reasonable. Basically optimizing existing standards.
How bout rappel direction indicators? Not unheard of in some places.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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The first guy could also tie stopper Knots in the rap line... There is basically anchors all over the place on that rappel route. If one swings around even a little bit one will be crossed. There is little reflective tacks in some of the trees on the North Dome Gully. To find them take your head lamp off your head and shine it from the waist scanning side to side. They will appear. Just as a side note...If you do the rappels you haven't really climbed Royal Arches. There is still a full pitch and some scrambling after where they start.
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
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Why not just schedule regular helo service during the busy months, a la the tram service on Hwy 120 in the Meadows? They could stop at the top of RA, bring down partiers on top of Half Dome, and pick up the stragglers atop the 5 Open Books as Werner suggested.
Can't our Federal Gummint do anything useful?
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fat-n-sassy
Social climber
San Francity, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
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I agree with adding an anchor below the tree labeled 15. That area is very easy to get confused/lost in. As of now there is nothing to do if you rap straight down from there other than clip one super old nut and hope for the best (the bolted anchor is out of reach by ~15 feet with 2 60m ropes). The smart thing to do is rap to climbers right down the ramp, but that is definitely not clear when you're up there and would be a major project once you rap straight down.
I've rapped the route 4 times and walked off from Washington Column a couple of times; both are sketch, but this is the one major issue I've had with the raps.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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With all due respect to supertopo and traditional ways: The reality is there is a rap route in a guide book used by hundreds of climbers every year at all times of the year. Many were dissapointed when it was installed but it's there. And this is not about the particulars of the recent accident but that accident was a reminder to me that there is/are serious flaws within the directions given for rappelling which are misleading and are not the rappellers fault. I'm won't place blame but would like to fix, if possible the flaws in such a way that they are obviuos while the rappell route is in use. Station 16 is bad and has caused serious accidents and has put experienced climbers in trouble. This problem has been brought up before. Another reality is climbers coming down at night. Who among the vets of the valley have not partaken or at least heard of the perverse traditional pastime of gabbing a beer at twighlight and watching rappers at RA stumble around in the dark. It's as old as the rap route. Unless one supports the removal of the rap route ( an obviuosly dangerous and unreal propsition), the bolts are here to stay and people will continue down in the dark. Are reflectors anymore of an additional blight then the bolts themselves? There are reflectors at the base of Middle Cathedral Apron in the trees denoting the trail down.
Edit: Qitnl gets it. How to show rappers the way down an improved rappell route is the key. Reflectors seem to be the easiest for night. But what I am willing to do on short notice is fix the situation at the tree/ramp area down to 16. I like Clint's proposal of setting a rap at or near the trees because they'd be obvious and near where the guide says to rap. And then add bolts mid-way between 15 and 16 so anyone going down would see them. Anyway, I've put some thought into it. Not just off the cuff.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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It's incredibly tragic that the young man died. There has been no definitive statement of what caused his particular accident, and even if there had been, I have no judgment or comment on this incident.
But I find the talk of adding reflectors to a rock climb disturbing.
There are basic tenets of safe climbing that need to be understood and followed when people climb, in order to control what can be controlled. I don't agree with the statement that this is a "beginner" route, so it needs to be made safer. Efforts to clean up the rap descent are laudable and understandable. But Just because RA is technically easy, doesn't mean it's not serious. People need to take it seriously and have a plan to complete it safely, according to their abilities. That will mean different things for different experience levels.
this route is long, so the time factor for ascent and descent makes it a serious undertaking. It's a basic tenet of climbing to be prepared to deal with eventualities. I find the talk of tons of "beginners" rappelling by headlamp amazing. In 30+ years of climbing I have never rapped by headlamp. Frankly it would scare the S&*t out of me to do it. "Be prepared to bivy" was one of the first climbing phrases I learned.
Will making the rap "safer" by adding reflectors only encourage more people to think that it's routinely Ok to rap in the dark?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 10:51pm PT
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Phlyp. Agree with you one hundred percent.... But a bad topo is a bad topo and a rap to nowhere is a bummer and is serious for all climbers.
And Stizzo you have a point. So what is the solution to offsetting bad information? How do you get them to follow Clint's topo? I don't know why I'm posting so much. There have been real tragedies at 16. Not bullshit drama.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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Reality is most follow topos.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:00pm PT
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The problem is expectation: The expectation that the reflectors will be there, and the issues that will arise when the reflectors are gone or don't function for some reason and people can't find the reflectors they were expecting.
lol.. substitute rappel station for reflectors in the above quote and you'll get to the meat of the problem
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Are reflectors anymore of an additional blight then the bolts themselves.
yes
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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No way ...
Us stupid Americans must use good brain.
Powder coat the rappel bolt hangers with reflective paint by Halo Coatings.
Halo’s innovative liquid and powder coating solutions lead the retro-reflective industry.
http://www.halocoatings.com/
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:09pm PT
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LuckyPink right. But how to let them know? Bye the bye... Rumour has it that HH got stuck at 16? Anyway, here I am getting caught up.....I've been stuck at 16, Roger's been stuck at 16, a lady rapped off at 16, Gri-Gri spent the night at 16 and hundreds are being told to rap at 16 by a guidebook......so I'm down to fix 16. You folks figure out the rest.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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actually the other poster overinterpreted my observation as a support of his argument.
I'm with ya , wstmrnclmr. You are obviously correct in assessing the need and the method for that fix .. it's a particularly difficult spot to place or see the bolts.. ST forum is known for all this ballyhoo about almost everything. Opinion is everywhere but common sense is hard to find. As for reflectors.. nobody likes those euro reflectors until they use them.. then it's "oooooo nice reflectors " I sent you a pm
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:36pm PT
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ain't gonna happen reflectors will be chopped
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:45pm PT
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Maybe RA should be re-named.
One of the 50 Classic Rappels.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 29, 2015 - 11:47pm PT
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Against the idea of reflectors. They will end up visible when a flashlight is shined from below by tourists, who will then complain and cause bad attention.
I did this as my third traditional climb, got off route, had to search for a while for a few anchors stations on the rappel, took 15 hours, finished by headlamp. It was a great learning experience. A 15 pitch climb shouldn't be dumbed down, it should remain a challenging route finding and rappelling adventure to help prepare climbers.
People should be able to either find the info on the net for this climb or follow the party ahead of them down. I've helped a few people down the raps.
I'm not sure why the topo here shows 21 raps and a 5.2 down climb. The supertopo posted by Clint on the beta page is more accurate IMO.
11 raps with 2 60m ropes or 15 raps with a single 60m. I think the single is probably just as fast because of less rope management time and less chance of getting it stuck.
The 5.2 down climb is 3rd class if I'm looking at the topos right. I think there were slings around the tree if you wanted to rappel/walk down.
The anchors aren't in consistent places because some are for 2 rope raps and some for single rope raps.
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