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John M
climber
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Hey Chief, This is John M. Not Ken M. I'm not a physician. Ken is. I just have a long history of dealing with mental and physical health issues, including drug abuse. Though I mostly quit drugs 25 years ago. with a few relapses. And haven't had any issues with them for 15 years unless you count 8 years of "legal" use of anti depressants.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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They too answered your question just as I did.
And I hope you will try to answer mine. That is, had you been put in charge of dealing with Vancouver's drug problem twenty-five years ago, what would you have done?
And for the record, I don't disagree with what you've been saying, and very much respect your work in helping others. And I really am interested in what you might have to say about the situation as it was then.
Why things reached that point in that city at that time is the subject of another discussion -- and a potentially valuable one -- but I'm curious to know what you think you would have done if you'd been put in charge there and then. You obviously think taking the harm-reduction approach was a mistake, but what would you have done?
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John M
climber
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So when is Vancouver going to open up clean alcohol centers in order serve the homeless downtown alcoholics population clean booze. Thus reducing the epidemic of alcohol poisoning from ingesting cheap ISOPRO alcohol and other forms of non-liquor types of the alcoholic drug?
come on Chief. You don't have to go down the absurd route.
How about answering Ghosts question.
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Chief,
You must know first hand that right now there are addicts out on the street who are unwilling or unable to seek the kind of help you provide. You would also probably be aware that addicts who are not in counselling, or treatment or who have just relapsed are highly likely to engage in risky behavior such as needle sharing.
INSite and other similar efforts do not promote the continued use of drugs as you suggest. They acknowledge the reality that it is happening and that there is a measurable reduction in communicable disease within the population of addicts as well as ODs by treating addiction as a health issue.
Justifying this abnormal behavior is not the solution. Let's start treating the reasons why and not the actual shooting up of the drugs.
This kind of thinking isn't based in reality. Yes, proactive, preventative measures can save people and families horrendous suffering. If you can get to someone early enough the road back to normalcy will be possible and easier. You can't pretend that people aren't going to fall through the cracks and any answer to your question of "why Vancouver was allowed to get to that point" is not going to be a rational argument against harm reduction.
You can choose to not treat the "actual shooting up of the drugs" but in doing so you must ignore the benefits of doing so.
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John M
climber
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John....
I did. Drug court programs work taking the addicts off the streets, providing medical assistance during the detox phase and then providing resources to clean them up mentally, psychologically and physically. With follow up resources for life long recovery.
I don't live in Canada, but from what I could find, it appears that they do have drug court.
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/about-the-court/court-innovation/DrugTreatmentCourt
And from what the video Bruce posted, this new method gets even more results. So it appears that is not a one or the other, but a combination of efforts. I can't verify this, but it appears that they have both programs.
Can any of you Candadians verify this?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Again, isn't it easier to just agree to disagree?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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The Chief - are you capable of seeing beyond your own biases?
Just curious.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I never said my take on your perspective was negative.
Why would you say that?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I do appreciate your efforts in helping people, Chief - felt I had been misunderstood.
Any effort to help people get over addiction is a positive effort, that's why I found this comment by you disturbing
You think my bias is a negative aspect to this issue
Hope we can shake hands instead of you punching me out when we eventually meet in this small town...
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Personal intervention and responses even at the Drug Court level in smaller population density areas may be effective. Attempting to do that on a large scale in a major urban area is a different matter and likely requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending of public health money.
Apples and oranges...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Thanks, Chief - appreciate the work you do.
As Todd stated above, the metropolitan take is very different.
Two sides of the same coin - I just escaped LA, so my take is a bit sided that way.
Cheers.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Attempting to do that [personal intervention] on a large scale in a major urban area is a different matter and likely requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending of public health money.
And if that major urban area has the worst injection drug problem in North America, then "requires significant policy backing and tremendous spending" escalated to a level that is effectively impossible to achieve.
Rick, or others like him, can achieve wonderful results in a one-on-one or small-group setting. Dealing with tens of thousands of injection drug users in an historically toxic section of a city requires a different approach.
Not to say that people who care can't help people in need in that setting, rather that it is a drop in the ocean relative to the overall problem.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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^^ Very cool!
Vancouver is in a different country with different rules (to state the obvious).
I grew up 50 miles from the Canadian border, and I can tell you: it is VERY different than SoCal and AZ.
Living in the rain changes things...
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John M
climber
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Read the other thread Chief, Crime went down. So did the number of new cases of aids and hep C. And what went up were the number of addicts who went into treatment programs.
Also.. its not necessarily clean heroin. The addicts in Vancouver have to bring their own drugs. And some of them do OD. Its just that now there are trained nurses who can administer Naloxone, which counters the opiates. The video says that so far none of those who have ODed there have died. And many of them then take the opportunity to enter treatment.
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John M
climber
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I'm not surprised that some would do that. There are all kinds of different personalities. We currently have no way to fully treat this disease in every human. We can dry them out. We can teach them and show them what is going on, and some will still go back. As you have witnessed.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Oct 10, 2014 - 01:15am PT
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Right on Chief you win again.
I like hanging with you way more on climbing threads than these types for sure.
Respect for overcoming your demons and helping others who have shown you theirs Chief.
But don't think for a second that means you know a thing about anyone else's personal experiences or what they have seen and it definitely doesn't give you the right to discount their opinion, especially about a neighbourhood you have never walked thru.
I linked the other thread because it had some good posts and productive exchanges of ideas.
Peace out.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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Not like it matters, but why did you start a new thread instead of bumping the old one Survival??
No wonder it all felt like Deja Vu all over again, all over again, all over again!!!
This one turned into another thread about the chief....
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