Vancouver Has Ballz

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survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:06am PT
I admire them for their bravery and compassion.

Discuss.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:24am PT
I hear you.

But I guess I'm comparing it to the non-model model that we have/ don't have here in the good 'ol USA.

Makes Vancouver look like public health Nirvana.



[Click to View YouTube Video]
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:44am PT
Please do explain why all these Heroin/Meth Addicts ultimately resort to this behavior and then continue to choose to live as they currently do.

No, please, be my guest. You explain it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 07:51am PT
Awesome non-answer the chief. Take yourself elsewhere if you don't have anything useful.


Take some time and learn something.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
MisterE

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 9, 2014 - 07:52am PT
An old article, but the Netherlands lifetime use with free heroin is about half of the US:

The Dutch parliament (Tweede Kamer) has voted to expand the country's free heroin program after hearing of the overwhelmingly positive results of a two-year pilot program, the Rotterdam newspaper de Volksrant reported March 5. The pilot program is currently providing free heroin to some 300 users, who must be Dutch nationals and at least 25 years of age. The program, started in March 2002, came about as the Ministries of Public Health, Social Affairs, and Justice recognized that despite their best efforts to stop and reduce heroin use, the county had anywhere from one to two thousand hardcore heroin addicts who could not or would not kick the habit. By this summer, a thousand Dutch users could be in the program, parliament members told the newspaper.

Government officials had supported the original pilot project in part because of anticipated economic and social benefits. And they are seeing them. Public Health Minister Borst told de Volksrant that the free heroin program costs around 15,000 euro per patient annually, a far cry less than the costs of prison and petty crime associated with black market drug use.

The policy also conserves law enforcement resources, and keeps heroin users in touch with mainstream society. "All the statistics point to the fact that free heroin is the best policy," Dr. Wim Van den Brink, director of the Dutch agency to treat heroin addicts (CCBH), told the newspaper. After one year in the program, according to Van den Brink, all participants had better mental and physical health, while the number of days addicts engaged in crime to "score" heroin dropped from 14 to two per month.

The announcement that the pilot program would be not only continued but expanded is remarkable coming from a Dutch government controlled by the conservative Christian Democrats (Christen Democratisch Appel or CDA). In addition to earning its rightist stripes by appealing to anti-immigrant sentiments, and sending Dutch troops to Afghanistan and supporting the US occupation of Iraq in the face of mass public opposition, the CDA has proven no friend of relaxing drug laws.

In January 2002, as reported by the newspaper Algemeen Dagblad, before they gained power, the CDA sponsored and passed a bill to prohibit the "testing" of MDMA (ecstasy) pills at raves for impurities or adulterants. For about 10 years local city governments turned a blind eye and allowed such tests at youth centers and private raves as a harm reduction measure, said the Algemeen Dagblad. Despite the obvious public health benefits, the CDA, joined with other Christian and right-wing parties banned the practice. Further, in May 2002 (The Week Online, Issue #238, May 24, 2002), the CDA floated a trial balloon about closing down hash bars and has continued to make similar noises ever since. Their ideological preferences notwithstanding, even CDA leaders, unlike their American counterparts in the US Congress or the Bush Administration, cannot challenge statistics showing the success of free heroin.

Dutch social scientist and drug expert Peter Cohen has famously noted that drug policy has little to do with drug use levels. A comparison of Dutch and US heroin use rates appears to support his point. According to the National Institutes on Drug Abuse (NIDA), the lifetime use rate was 0.85 in the harshly prohibitionist US, while Cohen and other researchers have found lifetime use rates in the more tolerant Netherlands about half the US rate, 0.4%
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:01am PT
Good posts you all.


The chiefs version of compassion is longer prison sentences.



Dutch social scientist and drug expert Peter Cohen has famously noted that drug policy has little to do with drug use levels. A comparison of Dutch and US heroin use rates appears to support his point. According to the National Institutes on Drug Abuse (NIDA), the lifetime use rate was 0.85 in the harshly prohibitionist US, while Cohen and other researchers have found lifetime use rates in the more tolerant Netherlands about half the US rate, 0.4%

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:05am PT
Do you currently or ever have practiced or participate in recovery programs with any recovering drug addicts?


Yes.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Oct 9, 2014 - 08:13am PT
Just another Band Aid that society in general places on the open wounds of Heroin/Meth or any other "Drug" Addiction and why it has become an epidemic globally.


What would the non Band Aid solution be - round them up back and shoot them?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 08:40am PT
As usual, you and others will politicize the disease of addiction.

No, we leave that to the government.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 9, 2014 - 09:00am PT
As usual, you and others...

In this case, I think the "others" includes you, Chief.

With respect to someone who is obviously deeply involved in helping addicts of various kinds deal with their problems, I'm not sure you understand the scale of the problem at that time in Vancouver. It was the heroin capital of North America (and, not unrelatedly, the AIDS capital of the First World), and the kind of one-on-one support that you offer simply wasn't an option.

It's also worth pointing out that this was not a politically-driven decision in Vancouver. The push for the harm-reduction approach came from some truly badass cops. Guys that you would look up to. But also guys who worked the streets in the most drug-ravaged city in North America, and understood the problem in a way that I doubt you can. Most of the politicians, from the municipal to the federal level, and of whatever degree of rightness or leftness, were dead set against it, and convincing them was a massive job.

I don't know what you would have done if you had the power to set policy in Vancouver in the 1990s, but I'd be happy to listen...

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2014 - 09:04am PT
I see you did not answer my question Survival...

Nor am I required to.

My OP was to support the whole idea of Vancouver and their clinic. The people who work there certainly believe in it, as do many smart public health and public policy experts.

Look at the numbers from Europe, compared to our incarceration nation. That's good enough for me.

It's not going away, no matter how much abstinence you preach. Believe that.



Edit: Great post Ghost!
thebravecowboy

climber
hold on tight boys
Oct 9, 2014 - 09:12am PT
Sorry Ghost, but I am pretty sure Barcelona takes the cake for HIV capitol of the first world.

Look at the numbers from Europe, compared to our incarceration nation. That's good enough for me.

It's not going away, no matter how much abstinence you preach. Believe that.

+1 Survival


Chief, I was raised in a whitebread conservative suburban community where abstinence was the expectation. As with sex or other heavy neural alterants, naturally, the youth did not abstain, and in fact were drawn to the verboten magnetically. I think that a more nuanced and complex approach is needed to keep junkies from making the exit.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 9, 2014 - 09:17am PT
Why did it ever get to that point, Ghost.

I'm not going to pretend to have the answers, but it certainly wasn't that Vancouver was run by libs who encouraged free drugs for all.

Part of it is geography. Imagine if there was only one city in the US where you could pass out in an alley or a doorway in the winter and not die. That might make it a magnet for the kind of people who pass out in alleys, leading to a concentration of addicts unlike any other city.

But really, I don't have any simple answer to your question. Why does it get to that point anywhere? I don't know.

But the one indisputable fact is that it did get to that point, and as much as it would have been nice to have been able to wave some kind of magic wand and make the problem disappear, we were stuck with what was, not what we wished could be.

But again, if you'd been tasked with making the decision of how to deal with it, what would you have done?
thebravecowboy

climber
hold on tight boys
Oct 9, 2014 - 09:20am PT
you think a junkie is not the first person to see, feel, and recognize his sickness, chief?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 9, 2014 - 09:44am PT




Education of why one should never initially engage in such a behavior in the first place is the proactive approach to this issue.


Don't do drugs because you could go to jail & if you go to jail the drugs are really expensive there.



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 9, 2014 - 10:11am PT
don't give me irrelevant anecdote.

Seems pretty damn relevant to me, but what do I know, I only have a brother
who has steadfastly refused to admit he is a junkie and will likely go to
his grave just so he can prove us all wrong.

Good work, Chief.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 9, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Bruce, I'll ask you a rhetorical question:

Why does it matter where he kills himself? It's his decision, isn't it?
John M

climber
Oct 9, 2014 - 10:56am PT
Science and Politics can't do shet when that invades ones life/lives.

Chief, you have a habit of stating things in absolutes. The first two videos that Bruce posted say that the program Vancouver is using has increased the number of people who go into rehab programs. It has also decreased the number of new cases of aids and hep C. these seem like pretty good things.

I don't think that any one program is going to fix the addiction problem. One of the main characters in the first video said he was raised in foster care. He said it as though that was a big problem. He did not go into what the problems were, but I'm sure that most people know that there are problems with that program. Perhaps this should be a different thread, but I wonder what we can do about that problem. What to do with kids whose parents are in jail, or dead. The foster care program sure seems to have issues. But then I suppose parenting itself has issues.
John M

climber
Oct 9, 2014 - 11:02am PT
You forgot two so important factors... the patient in most cases was in control when they initially chose to associate themselves with the drug. AND, until they abstain from ingesting the drug, they have no control. Thus, in order to retain some control and regain some sort of rational thinking and decision making capabilities regarding the choice to continue with the drug inflicted behavior, it is paramount that one get off the drug and rid that drug from their body and mind. Continued ingestion of that drug does not allow for that to occur..... rational thinking and decision making abilities. That comes from the long R&D "science" of recovery.

I agree that getting someone off the drugs is the highest solution to helping them learn to make better decisions. But what of those who don't respond to programs aimed at helping people get off of drugs. The first two videos Bruce posted say that this new programs has increased the number of people going into rehab. Mostly because they OD, then they are given that drug that reverses the OD. When they survive, they are given an opportunity to see that happened, and a place to go get off of drugs. Before this program those people were ODing on the street and a large percentage were simply dying.
John M

climber
Oct 9, 2014 - 11:19am PT
Why did Vancouver allow itself to reach the level of misery that it did. Why did the city officials turn a blind eye to the realities that were occurring in that area of their community?

Appears that there was no form of control. Just outright blatant allowance of this chaotic behavior to continue in their city.

Thus my initial response of reactive behavior on the part of society.

Some problems are overwhelming. Some don't have any easy answers. I don't mean to be hard on you Chief, but facts are facts and sometimes have to be faced. Your child was an addict for 8 years. Most likely in part because you were an addict. What should society have done about that? Should society have taken away your child and put him in foster care? Certainly society should have helped you with your addiction problems, but once those addiction problems are known, the damage to the child is already well under way. In order to protect your child, should society have been proactive and forbidden you to have a child? I only ask these questions in order to try and help you see that it isn't black and white. Not everything can be acted proactively on.

In other words, sometimes one does have to react, because not every problem is fixable in advance.

I fully agree that more proactive things need to be done. More available mental health care would be a start. But being proactive isn't the only thing that needs to happen. We also have to react to what is happening now.
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