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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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Put in the pins then pull them when your done. Let someone else put in their own pins or sac up and climb past it without gear. Bolts should be left for when there is not other gear specially if it is mostly crack. Or rap bolt the whole thing I don't care but less bolts the better if you want a trad route.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 21, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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Make sure you place bolts responsibly.......(Beer, bolts, and babes....)..
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Lol nice bolts Todd. :)
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Andy Middleton
Trad climber
Cow Hampshire
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Apr 21, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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We looked at that one on the left - way too runout, so we ended up on the rightmost rout. The one in the middle i don't think was there at the time - what's it called.. grade?
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Trad is Rad
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
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Better ask Tom.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:16pm PT
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Even if it is an extremely remote area with very few repeat ascents, a bolt is still preferable, although you could just use pins and then remove them, since the rock would not wear out over time with only one or two repeats over a period of years.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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Pound them out until angles or arrows work
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
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Knifeblades are especially bad over time. A few years ago while rebolting a route at the Pinnacles I removed a knifeblade and the area of the pin inside the crack was almost rusted through. The pin was about 20 years old.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Big Mike-
You are missing the idea. I am not advocating pin scars in the form of serenity crack.
If you drive a blade in to knock off irregularities then a ball nut can be placed is that enhancement in the same way as chipping the jardine traverse? In the desert I have started with blades and advanced to a 3/4" angle before a body weight placement emerged. That type of sugar wont take a bolt to begin with.
I guess I am too used to sandstone aid where you try all means to preserve a placement so the next one is hand placed or a clean piece.
and yes I know plenty of folks who don't have faith in much less than a 1/2" bolt every 4'. I know them, don't climb with them.
Best of luck drilling new holes in the Superstitions. That mentality could expand to many areas.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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Bolt please.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Apr 21, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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Bruce, knowing the rock at the Pinnacles, I would be surprised if the knifeblade was good for more than body weight - even when new!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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Urmas , you are not a believer.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
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PS: Would you put your ass on the line taking a whipper on a ... Blade that is 12 months or so rusted? Who the fk takes a hammer into the back country these days to pound in any loose fixed pins?
LOL
My friend was doing a really hard route on the Hulk last year where one of the cruxy sections had a pin that was garbage.
Adam lead the first pitch of Eye of the Storm, a better warmup compared to pitch one of Venturi and climbed the short pitch to the terrace. This set me up for the .11+ traverse on Venturi (pitch 3). Spirits were high until I went to clip the fixed piton and it wiggled and almost came out. Yikes! I went back to the ledge and found a big rock to solve my problem. Protected temporarily with a body weight 000 C3, I whacked the piton back in and sent the traverse.
http://www.dreaminvertical.com/2013/09/hulk-o-rama-round-two/
You can't just pull it out and smash in the bolt, but it seems like a reasonable thing to do.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
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Interesting question. We all know that pitons tend to loosen up with the seasons and anyone climbing in Yosemite can easily see the results of repeated piton placements. Oddly though, there seems to be almost a glorification of pin hole routes in the Valley. Several of them get four and five stars for quality and there is even a passage in a guide referring to a "fantastic pin hole route." I, for one, think they are abysmal.
You are the kind of climber who can make sound judgements. If there is no other choice, I would opt for the very judicious use of a bolt or two. Knifeblade placements today become very ugly and unnatural finger pockets in a surprisingly short time.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 21, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
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A couple of 1/4" button heads should do the trick . . . preferably with Leeper hangers.
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Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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I think you should pound some bolts in by hand. I was told by this kid that its super cool to drill by hand even though he's never actually done it.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
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I think the idea of fixed pitons is making less and less sense, and the issue, which I think is both delicate and complicated, is how to best preserve the nature of trad routes when one decides to replace fixed pins with bolts. There are a number of inequivalent issues, most of which apply to already-established routes with fixed pins.
(1) The fixed pins could be removed and not replaced and the route could just become more runout then before. In popular areas, this could produce a hue and cry from people who are used to having protection in a spot that has become less well-protected, but I think the question is, going forward, whether the added risks are aligned with the general standards of the area for the grade involved.
(2) The fixed pins could be removed and not replaced and the route protected with marginal passive gear, eg brassies, microcams, ballnuts, that afford a lower level of protection then the removed pitons. Same hue and cry as above possible, with the same comment about appropriateness.
(3) The pitons could be removed and not replaced and the route protected with good passive gear. You wouldn't think there'd be a hue and cry about this, but if the piton in question is in a strenuous position, then placing the good passive gear would make the route effectively harder and possibly more risky.
(4) The fixed pins could be removed and replaced with bolts in more or less the same position as the pins had been in. (I understand something like this has been the case in Frankenjura.) In particular, bolts are not used to make the climb better protected than it was with fixed pins.
(5) The fixed pins could be removed and bolts placed in more optimal positions than the fixed pins were in.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
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(6) The fixed pins could be removed and bolts placed in less optimal positions than the fixed pins were in.
e.g. Rollerball at Joshua Tree...
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 21, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
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Personally, I've had more rusting angles pop on me on Yosemite walls than rusty blades...
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