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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Well, I resole with regularity. My shoe of choice for all climbing (5-10 Grandstone) is discontinued, so I have 5 pairs I rotate and resole as they get worn. Summer-time when I'm climbing 3-4 days a week a pair of shoes lasts about 6 weeks before needing new rubber.
I'm no performance/rad/hard climber and I don't boulder, so I don't really notice any change in the performance of the shoe after a resole.
I'll add, different shoe brands hold up to resoles differently. My old JB hightops took 6 re-soles before falling apart. A pair of slippers (don't remember the brand) I once had only took one resole before self-destructing.
Edit to add.. in terms of buying habits when my shoes were actually available.. I'd usually buy a new pair about every 1-2 years and resole as the rubber wore out. I'm too poor to buy a new pair of $100 shoes every 6 weeks.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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Responding to Ed Hartouni:
Oh wow, you have a decent number of different ACOPAs. I guess if the ACOPA lasts are close to your foot shape, you don't have many other choices. If you eventually wear through your ACOPAs, there's a guy out in Las Vegas (Ray from kiloNewton climbing) who makes shoes based on molds of your feet. His going rate is $500 for the first pair and then $200 for each subsequent pair. He also has wide feet and likes his ACOPAs, so he makes shoes based on the ACOPA style. I'm primarily a gym climber, because facilities are super accessible on the college campus, and I'm going through rubber about as fast as you are (one new pair and one resole a year). Fortunately, not climbing off-width means my uppers last longer.
Responding to murcy:
Every community is different and has different purchasing habits. Although the product we're trying to develop was not directly intended for trad climbers, it can still be useful. I will have to take into consideration that a lot of climbers here need high-top shoes and that we won't be filling that need, but we could still potentially bridge the gap between stiff and sensitive shoes. Seeing as you've labeled yourself as "Gym climber," you're not in the norm here, so how often do you replace / resole your shoes?
Responding to john bald:
It's a shame that ACOPA stopped producing shoes. If you skipped reading the section that I wrote to Ed, I recommended Ray from kiloNewton climbing. I'll talk to him about making wider shoes. He wants to focus on making custom shoes but was also considering making one line of generically fitted shoes. He has wide feet, and his ACOPAs fit him perfectly. Hopefully if he knows there's a serious market for wider shoes, he'll be more willing to scale up production.
Responding to Nilepoc:
That's pretty interesting that you have not recently tried resoling a shoe. I guess seeing as I have to really break in shoes because I size them really small for bouldering, it makes more sense for me to resole than go through the huge pain that is to break in another pair of shoes. If you're not paying full-price for shoes, then it makes sense to keep buying new ones. It definitely seems La Sportiva keeps shoes on the line for a really long time, and 5.10 keeps moving right along, but I've noticed that they "update" their shoes and just keep renaming them. The 5.10 Projects were developed from a prior shoe (I forget the name) and have evolved into the 5.10 Team shoes. The 5.10 Prisms became the Rock Wrench, which was eventually discontinued altogether. I guess La Sportiva's mentality is that they'll make a couple different models every year and just continue making the successful ones until the end of tome. 5.10 seems to take their successful shoes and continually make minor improvements.
Responding to justthemaid:
Just out of curiosity, have you tried the Anasazi Hi-Tops? It seems that'the closest thing to the Grandstones that's currently available. Personally, I'm a little averse to Velcro, because it's not really possible to replace. 6 weeks seems really fast, buy I guess that's really dependent on the type of climbing. Buying a new pair every 1 to 2 years seems pretty normal. I'm a college student, and that's about how frequently I'm buying shoes. Thanks for the info!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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two major reasons I like Acopa shoes:
1) the uppers are rugged and stand up to the abuse I dish out to them
2) Acopa would make pairs with different sizes for 10% more than the base cost of the shoes. My Chameleons and Aztecs were both made with one shoe 9.5 and the other 10. per the fit for my feet. This was a great feature and the shoes wear like gloves... both, right out of the box.
The most important reason for Acopa was that Steve, John and Dario all were incredibly connected to the community and accessible and open about their products. I don't know if they made a living doing it, but they gave hugely to the climbers who used their product.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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locker, I think I a lot of people are just too lazy to send shoes in for resole, and then finally decide to stop climbing in them when they're on the brink of being utterly unsalvageable. I like to give people the benefit of doubt and assume the majority of people are somewhat mechanically inclined and not mechanically challenged.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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Ed, I think you might be in luck with getting shoes from Ray. From what I remember, I think Ray did some manipulation of his personal last to create a more generic-fitting shoe for folks with wider feet. I think he wears size 9 ACOPAs, so it wouldn't take much modifying to make size 10 and 9.5 lasts. His contact page is at the following: http://www.knclimbing.com/Contact.html
I'll shoot him a message directly about the seemingly large need for ACOPA style shoes within this community.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Total, there are ~14 pair in the gear closet.
Probably buy 2-4 pair per year, depending on whether I'm working or not (not working=more climbing=more shoes). Resole maybe 2 pair per year. I won't resole my limit shoes, the performance suffers and they have usually stretched a bit by the time they need one. I do resole the other, below my limit shoes, once. Very rare that I resole a shoe more than once before tossing them.
My gym shoes tend to last ~2yr of approx 2/week usage. I will usually resole a gym shoe once or twice, and by then have usually worn holes through the uppers from toe hooking..
For cracks, mocasyms 4 pair. One new that are getting broken in via short stints in the gym, a pair that are about 5 pitches from needing a resole (for desperate rings to rattley fingers cracks), a tighter pair for below my limit sport/face, and another crack pair that are midway through the lifespan. I will usually resole these slippers once.
For face or long trad, a mix of anasazi velcros ~2 pair, and anasazi lace (both blancos 2 pair, and verdes 2 pair). I do not resole the blancos or velcros, the performance suffers and these are on my feet for the difficult stuff. Occasionally I will resole a pair of the velcros and then use them as gym shoes, and will resole the verdes for use as all-day moderate cruiser shoes.
Someone claimed that no company serves those with wide feet. I disagree, Five-Ten works very well for my foot wide forefoot, narrow heel, low volume foot), better than anything on the market, including when Acopa were around. The Anasaszi last in particular works very well for me.
That said, I'm a loyal Five-Ten guy. Probably not going to get me off that bandwagon after 20 years of using them. It helps that I have friends who work for them, and the HQ is only a few miles away.
Good luck to you. Just don't be another MadRock, we have enough cheap, low performance garbage out there already. Also, take a cue from Evolv and whatever they're doing, do something else because their shoes stink horribly (the rubber sucks too, so does MadRock's for that matter).
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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locker, I guess I'm pretty good about getting my friends to stop climbing in their shoes that need resoles, so I don't often see shoes that are past saving.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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The choice appears to be support the lifestyle of someone like Locker climbing three times a week or help some underpaid Asian trying to feed a family of sixteen:-).
I never resole because the inner sole is always screwed before the outer goes through, a comnbination of my impeccable footwork, sweat, 200lbs and the inability of the climbing shoe manufacturers to comprehend that a heavy 6 footer with size 11 feet needs something more than a layer of cardboard to provide stiffness.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Hey Elcapinyoazz (I had to read that pretty slow to get it),
It seems like your gyms shoes last a while before needing a resole or replacement, and some of your trad shoes eventually become gym shoes. Do you ever buy new shoes just for gym climbing?
As for the MoccAsyms, crack climbing definitely puts a lot of stress on them. Do you have to purchase one new pair a year at this point? Do you also then purchase a new pair of shoes for trad climbing every year to replenish stock?
I think every company has one or two models that are meant to accommodate wider feet. 5.10, from my experience, seems to make shoes with softer uppers, so they conform better to feet of different sizes. You're definitely lucky that the Anasazi lasts fit you well, because they certainly have a lot of shoes out that use that last. My first pair of shoes was the 5.10 Coyote, and those have certainly served me well. They're three resoles in and still holding up, but they've kind of become my comfy top-rope shoes, because I primarily boulder with my Miuras and Vapors.
We're trying hard to not be another company that invests too much time on R&D and not enough time on selecting good material and making sturdy shoes. Evolv is definitely trying to work on their synthetics to make sure they smell less, and they're slowly getting there. We're currently using tried and true materials like suede and Vibram rubber. The R&D cost for developing new materials for climbing shoes is just too high, and we want to tackle one problem at a time.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
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Hey JimT,
There's actually a surprising amount of shoe assembling that's done in the United States and Italy (between La Sportiva, Scarpa, 5.10, and evolv). I do agree that whether it's resoling or replacing shoes, it'll be a job for someone out there in the world.
How often do you need to replace your shoes? My friend and I actually spent a good chunk of time taking apart shoes. If you want an insole in your shoe, the La Sportiva Turantula (and Turantulace) have a really solid plastic insole. The Solutions also have a rather thick insole that isn't cardboard. The Scarpa Techno (women's shoe) also had some seriously thick plastic, so I wouldn't be surprised if they stuck solid insoles in their other shoes. The evolv Defy shoe has a plastic insole, but it's much thinner. I hope that info helps you find your next pair of shoes!
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
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Now responding to Cosmiccragsman!
That's a super interesting way to maintain your shoes. I'm assuming the extra thickness of rubber would mess a bit with the shoe's sensitivity, but if you started climbing in boots, climbing with extra think rock shoes is a huge improvement. How often do you have to get new shoes?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I will grind them a little to get back to a good edge and slap some rubber on. I can resole a shoe till the actual uppers wear out because I only have to grind once on the original sole, so the shoe never loses its shape.
Dwain... I usta do just that, but the glue formula changed... the Barge Cement sort of lost it's punch and the shoes would delam quickly.
How do yours hold up???
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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Hey Russ Walding, I hope my response to JimT is useful to you as well. Watching those videos was pretty fascinating. Do you ever bother to resole your shoes, or do you always just buy new ones, too?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Do you ever buy new shoes just for gym climbing?
Sometimes, yes. Depends on if I have a pair of velcros ready to retire into gym use or not. The current pair, that just got set aside last week for a resole, were bought specifically for the gym...Five-Ten Rogue, which is marketed as a beginner/intermediate shoe. They are cheap relative to other shoes, and easy-on/off with a velcro closure. That is pretty much my criteria for gym shoe, inexpensive and easy to get on/off with decent performance.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Replying to Russ Walling:
Alright, thanks for the edit. It sounds like you had a good trip to Spain. Wearing out just under the big toes means you got some pretty good footwork going on there. So normally, I guess you're going through one pair a season? That sounds pretty decent.
Replying to guyman:
I'm also pretty interested in how Dwain does the resoling. I've been using both Barge Cement and Aquaseal with mixed results. I keep hearing the new Toluene-free Barge Cement isn't as good. I think one of the biggest factors is getting good compression while glueing. A last definitely helps. If you have flat-ish shoes, you might be able to get away with using a shoe tree.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I've been resoling my own for better than 20 years, even carved my own lasts to simplify it.
I intentionally made the last with a flat instead of curved bottom and do as Cosmic except I wait till the original sole is down to about 1/8" left at the maximum point of wear, usually right under the big toe.
A 6" wire wheel on a bench grinder works the best for the sanding because it doesn't heat up as much as a sander and doesn't load up either.
Barges has always needed to be thinned down to about the consistency of latex paint to work right. Any ketone solvent works about the same, Acetone, Toluene or MEK.
Just don't breathe much of it or you'll end up like Locker.
Have a good exhaust fan.
Let it dry for half an hour or so and then warm up both sides with the heat gun and hammer the sole on. More or longer compression does nothing.
Delamination is almost always a surface prep, contamination issue.
Even the grease off of you hands can screw up a glue job.
Overheating before attaching will also screw it up. If you get bubbles, start over.
I've got as many as eight resoles out of board lasted shoes, (which no one seems to make anymore), never more than five out of a slip lasted shoe.
Time between resoles, six months to a year depending on location and activity level.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Please send $3.50 to my paypal associated with my email on this site.
At which point I'll be happy to provide my insights, shoes, usage frequency, and type of wear pattern.
But for what it's worth you should be paying some cobblers for their insights on how often they see a repeat customer, no?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
who gave up and just goes sailing now!
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If I am climbing 4 days a week I go thru 2 or 3 pairs of slippers a year bouldering and sport climbing and they never get resoled. My edging shoes (granite climbing) get resoled once every 2 or 3 years but I rotate thru 2 or 3 pairs depending on how stiff a shoe I actually need for a route. I have short/wide feet and like 5-10 Newtons and I also have an old pair of Sportiva Black Taos for really hard edging that have only been resoled once and they are reserved for special routes.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2013 - 12:13am PT
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Time for a mass response again!
Responding to TGT:
Thanks for the in-depth response. I'll definitely have to refer back to this if I decide to resole my own shoes. Currently, I don't have a bench grinder or belt sander, so I'll have to send shoes in for now. Eight resoles is pretty high, and five resoles is also pretty good. A lot of people I know get between two and four for a pair of shoes. Resoling every 6 months to a year also seems to be the norm.
Responding to Cosmiccragsman:
I think the reheating method is the way to go. TGT does it, and apparently the guys at the Rubber Room do the same thing. They don't use Barge, but they use something really similar (some sort of general purpose cement).
Responding to locker:
I'm still attending college for an engineering degree. I think I need to preserve what's left of my sanity, so I'm going to avoid inhaling more fumes.
Responding to Mungeclimber:
I've talked a bit to the folks at the Rubber Room. They're super laid-back about their practices. They even told me where where I could buy rubber and the stuff they use for replacing rands. I have a decent amount of information gathered from different climbing communities and questionnaires, so thank but no thanks. This thread has just become pretty interesting, so I'm just keeping it alive. Free information exchange is great!
Responding to G_Gnome:
What kind of slippers do you get? Do you purchase different slippers every time just to test what's out there? I climb 3 or 4 days a week, and I've been going through one pair of soles every year on average, although I don't have a lot of data points. Hanging onto your reliable shoes seems to be a good idea. I'll be sending in my Miuras for a resole soon.
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