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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 1, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Hello ST,
A friend and I are conducting some market research on how often people replace or resole their climbing shoes (don't worry, locker, we won't be infringing on your business). Of course, this data by itself doesn't mean a whole lot, because it's super dependent on how often the owner climbs, how many pairs of shoes they own, etc. So, in addition to how often you guys resole or replace shoes, can you guys also provide info about how often / how much you guys climb, the number of pairs of shoes you guys have (and how much each pair is used), and what type of climbing you guys do?
If you feel like there's any other pertinent info, feel free to include it.
Thanks,
rotf101
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Nilepoc
Big Wall climber
Tx
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I never resole ever.
Current Quiver consists of
Two pair slippers Cobras for circuiting
four pairs solutions
one for gym (oldest pair)
One for warmups (middle aged pair)
Two new pairs one for sending and the other for backup to rotate in when the gym pair bites the dust.
One pair mythos for Trad use
Three pairs 5.10 Guides
daily wear, wall wear, and approach These are cycled like the solutions.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
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So, a question for Nilepoc:
How long have you been climbing, and how many shoes have you phased out? (Alternatively, how long do each of these shoes last until they're shot?) I take it that you didn't just buy all of these shoes at once.
As for locker:
What do you consider an "outing"? I presume that one 3 hour trip to the gym doesn't constitute an outing, but a week-long trip outdoors might. I guess, more directly, how many of your own shoes do you resole every month?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I like to Boulder Tuesdays, Thursdays at Stoney.
I like to climb every weekend (about 3 / mo)
I never resole as I find it ruins the shoe
Mythos, for the last 10... 8 years or so.
I think I have about 10 or 12 pairs... very worn and retired.
I give shoes away to noobs at Stoney.
I buy about 2 pairs per year.
Why you ask???
EDIT... oh I have been climbing for 40 years. And a outing for me can be as short as a few laps at Apes Wall or a 4 hr bouldering sesh.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
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Thanks for the info, guyman.
Since you asked about why I need this information, I might as well tell you all. My friend and I are considering entering the climbing shoe market. Yes, there's already a ton of competition in the already crowded market, but as ACOPA has proven (with customers that have wider feet), we might be able to break in by serving another niche. We'll probably be serving the younger, new bouldering community more (blasphemy, I know, but I also fall in this category). Bottom line is, we need to know whether or not our product will sell before dumping much more money into it.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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locker, that's also a valid point. We're not actually trying to sell to the large foot-width climbers, although there doesn't seem to be a manufacturer that's currently addressing that problem.
Currently, I'm asking general questions, because I wanted to get a sense of climbers' buying habits. That will give us an estimate of how many sales we can make for a given period of time.
Resoling also changes climbers' buying habits. If a climber resoles his/her shoes two of three times (let's say once a year) before retiring the shoes, that means s/he will be buying new shoes every 3 or 4 years as opposed to every year.
Alright, so what's going to be different about out shoe is that it is going to be adjustable. I know that sounds a little bit ridiculous, but I'm going to leave the technical details out, because we're currently in the steps for filing a patent. The point is that instead of having to own multiple pairs of shoes for different types of climbing, our shoe can be adjusted for aggressiveness. This also means that the shoes will suffer more wear, because they aren't being cycled for different types of climbing. All of these factors have to be considered when we're performing market predictions.
As for the rubber we're intending to use, we will probably be starting with Vibram XS Edge, because the cost required for research and development of new materials is absurdly high. Vibram is available to anyone who's willing to buy it, unlike Stealth or ecoTrax. We may eventually consider developing our own rubber, but that is certainly not a priority now.
On the flip side of this discussion, I would just like to give folks a friendly reminder that I would still like to know people's buying / resoling habits, however interesting this side conversation might be.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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I was curious how long a sole lasted so I kept track on a couple pairs.
On 4mm XS edge (hard rubber) I was getting around 140 pitches per sole.
On 5mm XS edge I was getting like 170.
I'm sorry to say I didn't control for rock type. I'd do some in Joshua Tree, some granite, and a mix of basalt and limestone. Mostly trad. No plastic, I used different shoes indoors.
This is on a 4 pair of shoe rotation that I've been using for several years (although the shoes are now starting to die after 4 resoles). I probably own 8 pairs of shoes total, and buy one new pair a year while resoling 2 or 3.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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sniffing glue is a full time job.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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Hey caughtinside,
That's actually some really neat information that's way more detailed that most people can offer. I should consider keeping track of my shoe use with the new pair of SCARPA Vapors that I got recently and the Miuras that I'm about to send in for a resole.
as for locker:
Thanks for the questions! Feel free to keep them coming, because it definitely helps us to focus on the product and get it right.
as for nature:
Do you have any input on your buying or resoling habits? Sniffing glue is definitely a full-time occupation. The more you sniff, the slower you get, and it'll slowly consume your life. Fortunately for me, I'll be back in college in about a month, so the shoe project will have to go on the back-burner while my friend continues to work on in full-time.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i'm guessing you already know that basically no one from your intended market (i.e., under 30) posts here.
with the exception of a couple pairs of specialty shoes, i never resole anymore.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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Hey klk,
I have definitely noticed a trend among the posters here. I am posting questions to a variety of climbing communities, so it never hurts to have more data. How often do you have to replace your shoes?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Since you asked about why I need this information, I might as well tell you all. My friend and I are considering entering the climbing shoe market. Yes, there's already a ton of competition in the already crowded market, but as ACOPA has proven (with customers that have wider feet), we might be able to break in by serving another niche. We'll probably be serving the younger, new bouldering community more (blasphemy, I know, but I also fall in this category). Bottom line is, we need to know whether or not our product will sell before dumping much more money into it.
Make good shoes and you will win.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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How often do you have to replace your shoes?
i'm in that under-served 40% or so of the market that needs a wider shoe or a mixed last. so i have one pair of custom-mades that i prolly resole once a year, and then do as much as i can in old beaters and approach shoes. i burn through approach shoes, 'cuz none of them ever really fit.
that's one place where an adjustable insole might help. like those new salewas, but for sierra/rockies stuff. stiff for scree and groveling scrubby wide cracks, and crank up the heel lift for slabs and trails. given the growing popularity of the high sierra, and the inevitable aging of the folks doing it, i can imagine a real market for that kind of a shoe.
about the only commercial climbing shoes i can wear now are sportivas-- tc pros and testarossas. i have multiple pairs of each and cycle them. and nurse them. on the rare occasions i get back to jtree, i wear only beaters.
an adjustable-insole technical shoe would be a real gift for backcountry rock. easier to imagine it working there than in bouldering/sport scenarios.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jeez...if you can't tell when your shoes need resoling you probably can't walk down the sidewalk and chew gum at the same time.
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Nilepoc
Big Wall climber
Tx
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In answer to your questions.
I have been climbing 25 years. I go climbing 2-3 times a week (to a gym) and I take 6-7 "road trips" a year. Currently living in Houston which puts a big crimp in my climbing schedule. Before this I lived in El Paso and New Mexico.
I do not pay retail for my shoes so I tend to order multiple pairs at once. I would say I go through 3-4 pairs a year and have for the length of my climbing "career". I would say a pair lasts a year before I am unwilling to climb on them in the gym anymore and I chuck them. My focus was heavily bouldering for the last ten years and more recently has moved back to trad and big walls, with a heavy focus on bouldering still.
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rotf101
Boulder climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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Responding to klk:
We have a couple different ideas in mind for making climbing shoes, but the current one we're trying to focus on is for adjustable aggressiveness. This can also translate to adjustable stiffness. The more downturned the shoe is, the less upturned it will be when loaded (I'm assuming this is pretty obvious to you). The only reason we aren't really looking to fill the needs of crack climbers is that our current design doesn't really adjust how stiffness of the shoe for twisting, and will be cut below the ankle. It's true that there's less variety in steepness of climb for bouldering and sport (not many scramble-style routes), but there is always a number of those kinds of routes. The adjustable stiffness shoe will lend itself well to backcountry rock.
Responding to donini:
I think I can gauge when my shoes need to resoled pretty well, but I was curious about how often people do it. I don't necessarily want to know what indicators people look for when resoling. How often do you, specifically, buy or resole your shoes?
Responding to Nilepoc:
I'm assuming since you don't pay retail for your shoes, you might cut back your buying habits if you had to buy them full-price? I'm also assuming that you don't resole your shoes, but would you resole your shoes if you couldn't pro-deal them? The information that you've provided is certainly already quite helpful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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since I bought my first Acopas in 2005 I've pretty much stayed with them...
I still have a pair of Chameleons that I have been using since then (thanks to Locker's great resole)...
I went through a pair of Aztecs, my JBs need someone willing to take on a project, I have another pair of Aztecs being resoled as well as a pair of Legends, my second pair of Legends will go in for work once the first come back.
The Legends are on their second resole.
In addition, I've been through one or two pairs of Kaukulators (best OW shoe, in my opinion) in that same time period. Usually these get resoled once before the abuse of OW terminates their useful lifetime.
So I'm cycling through 6 pairs right now, the Legends are getting the bulk of the use.
Since 2005 I've been on roughly 500 climbs representing 1100 pitches, mostly in Yosemite Valley and Tuolumne Meadows (but many other places also). I am at the gym roughly twice a week through that period (though not since my gym closed) so maybe 700 gym sessions in that same time period.
Barry says I intentionally put my shoes through a grater...
recap:
9 pairs of climbing shoes in 7 years... 8 resoles... basically averaging a new shoe every year and a resole every year...
...never thought of it that way...
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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So at best you will determine that people who both frequent a mainly trad site and care to post how often they buy and resole shoes buy N pair per year. That seems about as useless information as it's possible for you to obtain.
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john bald
climber
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I have the classic "wide, club foot". Here's my current rotation:
Acopa Specter, one resole, is my "go to" cragging shoe for granite/quartzite.
5.10 Quantum, original sole, for the steeper ground and limestone.
Acopa Specter, three resoles, my beater shoe for plastic.
Like having one new shoe in the quiver. Spend a lot of time finding the perfect fit. For what its worth...44 yrs, and a lot of shoes. Good luck on your venture.
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Nilepoc
Big Wall climber
Tx
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In answer.
I have not resoled a pair of shoes since the mid 90's and was never happy with them when I used to get resoles. The shoes just feel floppy post resole. I bought about the same number of shoes even when I was paying retail though I did walk around in them less. My shoe buying philosophy is buy comfortable but snug and when they stretch out to much make Em gym shoes until they die. I credit this approach to shoe buying as the reason I don't have a typical climber funk foot.
My brand of choice has always been La Sportiva because they fit my foot so well. Another reason I do not resole is Sportiva does not change their shoe models as much as other brands and so I do not have to resole to keep climbing in my favorite shoe like I would if 5.10 was my prefered brand. I bet 80% of those hundred pairs have been Sportiva's, the rest were a mix of Boreals and Scarpas. My first pair of shoes were resoled firé red dots.
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