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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'm just not buying that one can beak and rurp and NOT expect the same development. It is no nobler to initiate the process, in fact, its less so. And assuring that such placements could last if "hammered gently" is something only an oxymoron could say.
But people turn a blind eye to the knowledge of what will inevitably result prefering to focus more myopically on the "glory" of "hard" aid.
Just because its bold doesn't make it right. (Something many have yet to appreciate.)
As for Touchstone, its the first 50m that have been hurt most, damn ankle biters!
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Ron,
I agree. I have enjoyed some good pioneering nailing, but when looking over at the Zodiac, we appreciated that if Porter had climbed it a few years later, he might have used heads beaks etc. and placed a lot less bolts. And a durable classic would have instead been another beat out broken wire mess. Degradation happens much faster in your red world...
My son Braden was slightly ahead of me in learning the joys of camhooking, since then we have had a blast together nailing without a hammer. Braden has done a few of your zion classics (without me the punk), must rectify this gap in my aid experience soon...Maybe see you this fall.
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Thanks.
But please don't camhook on soft desert rock. It can blow out the placements.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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And I should add that I believe Porter was familiar with the tools but had the integrity to eschew their use.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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RON: "But people turn a blind eye to the knowledge of what will inevitably result prefering to focus more myopically on the "glory" of "hard" aid."
So, you are condoning that a modern party get on a route, like "Artist Tears", that was in fact originally a tiny seam for 80% of the route, which when FA'd, entailed the use of RURPS & CRACK-N-UPS and done with very delicate "Artistry" in order to accomplish with style and aestheticness, and simply ignore the FAer's style and talents and go ahead and pound in some #1-#3 Angles and totally destroy the original line just for the sake of saying they were "Visionary's" for the modern day ascentionists?
If so, then one should be allowed to walk into any art museum, anywhere in the world, and add or change any piece of art that they choose to because they see a different "Vision" within the original artist piece that correlates with today's "Feelings".
Concurrent with this philosophy, why then would an FA Party take the time and aestheticness to even work through a potentially challenging route with style, and simply think of the "Masses" that will come, and pound the sheeet out of a 1/8" seam and make it accessible to all by chipping and manipulating the existing line so as to make it "Safe" and a welcome highway for all in the future to enjoy and call it A5? "Gee Mom, I just did a an A5"...NOT!
I have many FA's that I busted my ass on and were done with much hard work and style and people have come and done just that! It is a travesty! They did it to bring the route down to their level so as to say, "Look Mom, I did the Second Ascent of this route!!!"
I don't believe that this is a valid process. I heard a very honorable saying years ago that has been a mainstay of my 35 years of climbing...
"If you can't do the Grade, stay off the route Dude!"
I don't believe that A4 and above Aid Routes should be ones for all to play on! It is a level of mastery, accumilated talents and experience that one developes over time in order to achieve that level of "Madness" and ability. Changing that philosophy would destroy the whole concept of what the definition of "Hard Aid" is truly all about.
It's called "Style"! And that is being a "Visionary" in my book!
What a concept...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Condoning what?
Are you even paying attention to what I say?
You can whine about all the "artistry" you want, but if you won't acknowledge that hammering, however "gently", CHANGES THE ROCK WITH EACH ASCENT then your view is limited indeed.
While I don't agree with your exultation of skill as being of a higher priority than concern for the outcome of the process that you've initiated at least I understand how you have developed these values.
It seems however that you refuse to open your mind to what I'm saying.
Style is a question of means.
I'm concerned with the result.
If you use the best style in the world but eventually wind up with a pile of crap is it worth it.
You think hard is good (or else why the name?).
I think its better to have a route that can last, be enjoyed by more people through the years, even if it compromises what ONE party could achieve in terms of difficult (read; ratings, personal glory, aggrandizement etc.).
If the end result of the cult of emulating boldness is a rock that is off limits or is just no longer climbable as a result of degradation how can you have pride in such a legacy?
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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"But please don't camhook on soft desert rock. It can blow out the placements."...
True....if you do not know or have the experience of how to properly utilze this very valuable and incredible tool!
Like any other tool that is available....improper use will lead to...
Camhooks have saved my ass on many a route on very soft Entrada in the past 20 years and I left no destructive scars...
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Ron:"Style is a question of means.
I'm concerned with the result."
For self..."Ego"..."Look what I have done for all of you...Me"
Or for the integrity of the definition of...
"Aestheticness of a bold ascent" for those that may have the ability and talent to follow the challenge at hand in the same manner as originally done.
Gyms are for what you are speaking about....
Not everyone can climb 5.14, A5, M9 or 6K meter "Walls" in Alpine Style... only those that exploit there talents and abilities. Making it easier for all to be at that level destroys the entire concept of any "Rating" System.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Ron:
"If you use the best style in the world but eventually wind up with a pile of crap is it worth it."
By definition that is an Oxymoron....impossible!
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clustiere
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2006 - 12:01pm PT
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PDH are you attempting to name drop in you photos, that is so adolecent.
You two need to go do a wall together.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Some people are so narrow minded and entrenched in their position that they are simply incapable of even comprehending the rationale of alternate perspectives.
When climbers are such people and are elitist snobs about dificulty to the point that they can see little else, then the tunnel vision that guides their actions could well endanger the abilities of future climbers to even be able to access our rocks.
I do NOT believe that all climbs should be brought down to a level that permits most people to be able to climb them, but I also do not believe in the elitist attitude that says, "I should be able to climb it only if I am 'good enough', but if there is residual damage, well, that's just the price everyone will have to pay for existing in a world with truly deserving hardmen like,....me!"
What hubris!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oh, and PDH,
an oxymoron is less verbose than a paradoxical concept. It is a two word paradox.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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Name calling? attempt gone...just me now!
Ron:"I'm concerned with the result."
At what expense Ron? Bolt ladders that culminate in triumph of a radical attempt to save your soul by "Clean Aid" placements? Hmm, looks like an oxymoron...drill holes, pound in pins, many of them in some cases, then "Clean Aid"?
You make absolutely no resolve Ron! If that is the case, then WTF is sense of any "Rating" system??? And, why did you put a rating on all of your routes? Another oxymoron to your current philosophy!
"As for Touchstone, its the first 50m that have been hurt most, damn ankle biters!".....It's mostly fixed drilled pins, Ron! How can that section be hurt????? Oddly enough, many of your routes seem to have the same paradoxical prefix trademark. Bolt Ladders. Some placed within 20 feet or so from a natural 5.8 crack! i.e. P1 of the "Corner Route", Tombstone One, Kane Creek. Isn't that in a sense a "Destruction" of a natural formation in order to reconcile some sort of route 50m's, 60m's or however many m's up, to achieve what may be a possible line?
It's called progression of ability Ron. With better ability comes "Style". You get better, you climb at a higher grade. Ones FA's evolve into bolder and far more aesthetic works.
Also, if you are such a "Die-Hard" to your philosophy, then why wasn't the crux pitch, P4 of the "Shot", maniplulated in the fashion as you describe, so as not to incur any future damage by the following ascentist? Much, if not all of that pitch, was in fact "Natural" placements and held/holds the title of ("Crux") C2, per your topos in all the Guide Books and in the 2nd issue of "Onsight".
Oh, hand placed Beaks, Pecker's and RURPS, Leeper Cam Hooks, without hammer, that comes with progression of ability and talent. Hammer not necessary if the proper technque is applied. That goes with any pins! Body weight only placements placed by hand, a technique that incurs little if any "Damage" to the existing FA line. Bold and aesthetic. But, can result in some very challenging and serious falls if not applied correctly.
Per the YOSEMITE DECIMAL AID Rating System, A4 is defined as:
"Modified eq. may be necessary. EXCEPTIONAL SKILL AND EXPERIENCE required with placements, route finding on marginal and very hazordous rock conditions while operating in situations that normally invite potentially long and very serious falls".
And then A5....
It's the reality of "HARD" and tenuous aid climbing, Ron. Per your philosophy, you sound like anything above A/C3, should be abolished from the system...to hard?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Resolve? Reconcile?
I would much prefer it Mr. PDH if you would proofread your posts and rework them when your presentation might be vague, ambiguous, or poorly worded. One need not read far into the last to see room for such improvement.
Its nice that one is able to do that here. When one is out on lead on virgin rock in Kane Creek redoing a lead can be harder. One is not always able to know that if some dangerous blocks are pulled off a better alternative may present itself.
BTW how long do you intend on harping and monday morning quarterbacking about this one route out of the hundreds I've had a hand in?
Although your writing style tends to obscure your positions the following points may clarify the issues (I believe) you are refering to;
1) On the second aid pitch on Space Shot (P4 or 5 probably) quite a few years ago a friend and I left the route in a condition where it could reasonably be climbed clean. It has subsequently been altered dramatically by others.
If you are suggesting that originally when I first did this pitch solo more than 30 years ago it could have been done clean, then you are clearly off your rocker (nor are you in a position to say compared to me).
2) Hand placed beaks etc. qualify as CLEAN climbing. "Gently hammering" them does not.
(BTW I would greatly enjoy watching you use a "hand placed rurp"!!!!)
3) In my R&I interview I cited an example of your "reality" of hard aid that would also qualify as ethical clean climbing under my standards; using a highly questionable clean piece a ropelenth out with no appreciable pro.
I never said anything about abolishing A/C3, whatever that is. Where do you get this stuff???
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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My experience on Touchstone sheds light on the complexity of these issues.
On the first hammerless ascent in May '81 I used a number of hand placed pins. Subsequently the same placements were used by people who carried hammers and felt that a few gentle taps for security was allowable.
Albeit slowly the placements enlarged and the route changed.
Don't tell me that its those OTHER people with hammers that are doing all the damage. If you hammer you're part of the problem unless you are specifically working towards creating a route that can be climbed without one.
Even if the side effect. do you hear me? I said side effect, is that the rating may change.
I don't worship ratings. I worship rock.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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If you are suggesting that originally when I first did this pitch solo more than 30 years ago it could have been done clean, then you are clearly off your rocker (nor are you in a position to say compared to me)....
Why Not Ron??? The first time I did your route, in 84', I leapfrogged #5 - #7 Stoppers! The same Stopper's at your disposal when you Solo FA'd it in 78'! I used no pins nor camming devices on that section. 90% of the placements were and still are in the natural original shallow (at least when I last did it in 03') recesses that were and still are the placements.
"A/C3, whatever that is..." OK Ron, A3 or C3. My bag...
"Hand placed beaks etc. qualify as CLEAN climbing. "Gently hammering" them does not." ...
Ahh Dah!
"(BTW I would greatly enjoy watching you use a "hand placed rurp"!!!!)"....
Have done it many a times, both horizontally and vertically. Learned to hand place them horizontally as Camming device's on the downward "Eyebrows" of Looking Glass A4/A5 lines in 90'. Just because you haven't the will to do so, doesn't mean that other's that walk this planet can't!
"My experience on Touchstone sheds light on the complexity of these issues. On the first hammerless ascent in May '81 I used a number of hand placed pins. Subsequently the same placements were used by people who carried hammers and felt that a few gentle taps for security was allowable"...
Exactly my point Ron!!! You drilled the holes to insert those pins, what did you expect the rest of the "Gumby" community to do? Hand place Pins??? Last time I solo'd (hammerless as I first did in 84') that pitch, 02', many of those holes were empty...hand placed Beaks. Worked fine!
Ironically Ron, it appears that you have no room in this forum for anyone to disagree with you. I have read many a "Threads" prior to even participating, and have seen time and time again, that when someone even dares to disagree with you or any of your buddies, it's off with their heads and you begin to pry and demean their grammer, spelling, writing abilities, question their abilities to breathe air etc.
Ron, you aren't the only guy on this planet that has put up some "Bold" routes. And, in some cases, some very fun and well done lines. But, I question the validity of your "Clean Climbing" Soap Box, when time and time again, I have stumbled upon a Drilled "Pin" Ladder in the "Southwest" Desert, that meanders up to.... and in some cases, as I indicated before, not less than 20 feet away from a very "Moderate" (5.7/5.8) CRACK that goes directly to the same line you sought to put up. I do some research, and the same name pops up time and time again, as the author...hmmmm?
"When one is out on lead on virgin rock in Kane Creek redoing a lead can be harder. One is not always able to know that if some dangerous blocks are pulled off a better alternative may present itself."
So that gives anyone a valid reason to drill holes on a blank wall as far up as they feel it necessary to, and then pound in pins into those drilled holes where no pins would originally go, all in the name of safety for their FA? Yeah, that is a grand example of "Clean Climbing". Once again, my bag, I forgot the fine print clause.....
Never mind Ron, once again you are right and I will once again walk away from this keyboard asking myself why I even wasted my time trying to venture on some suedo valid and honorable dialogue with "Piton Ron". Oh, and yes we have met several times in and outside of ZNP. We even shared a beer or two. But, that was before the money.
Now, how about them rivets.....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well then I won't attack your math skills except to say that in '76, not '78, that pitch required pins to create those #5 and #7 (I'll take your word on size #s) that you say are natural.
That was a pure parallel crack, nearly perfect.
Why do you insist on reading into a remark like I would greatly enjoy watching you use a hand placed rurp?
I would!!!!!
I really would.
No popcorn needed!
As far as Touchstone goes, you're all wet.
The bolt ladder REPLACED the original pitch (which when I first did it self-belayed and unobserved included a 45' groundfall dicey aid move). The hand placed pins were in conventional placements. They continued into the crack on the second pitch.
Subsequent use of cams, most of which didn't exist in '81, have changed hand placed arrow spots into 2+" wide pockets. I even eventually replaced one (right off the relocated belay) with a bolt to (hopefully) halt the degradation.
That original pitch is now the "free" variation that uses blown out pin placements (?), or what I lovingly refer to as "Bird tactics".
This was, of course, before I developed the practise that you have found such ample evidence of wherein I;
1) locate a line
2) sacrifice a goat and read the entrails
3) do a little dance in the moonlight
4) drill a half pitch bolt ladder
5) continue in a slightly more conventional manner
If anyone is a mountebank its the person who won't (can't?) look down the road.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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It is considered poor etiquette to significantly re-edit one's posts without so indicating Mr. PDexpert.
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PDHMAN
Ice climber
Eastside of ....
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EDIT: Never mind Ron! You keep on "Clean Climbing"! You're the Best! Hmmmm....
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Interesting discourse you guys. I happen to think that you both have valid points. Not trying to put words in your mouth but this is how I read it.
Ron - A route should be sustainable (ie: not prone to certain damage)
PDHMAN said "In simple terms, it was created by selfish people who hadn't a clue on how to:
1) Climb within their abilities/experience, which includes the "Cleaner's" abilities/experience.
2) Didn't give a "Rats Ass" about the rest of the world. Just as long as they did the route. "
I believe that you guys started this thread more on common ground than uncommon. However, when taking your points to the extreme the disagreements come into play.
I have not done Touchstone since 1985. My understanding is that the original line "wore out" enough so that Ron thought a new start was warranted (I may be wrong here).
All I can for sure say is that when I got on it in 1983 the first original line went hammerless. It was obvious that while it was clean it was also somewhat exciting for the newb (me) and it was also somewhat engineered to go hammerless. It was only through Ron's constant "encouragement" (ie: yelling dont freakin use your hammer!)that I managed to climb the first pitch in about 3 hours. (While I thought Ron was a bit extreme at the time, I later appreciated his verbal uhh encouragement, lol)... I came back after much more practice and in 1985 it took 30 minutes hammerless. My experience actually supports both of your arguments. I had become more experienced and the route was somewhat sustainable if you had the patience and experience.
My guess is that some of those placments simply wore out while others succumbed to the hammer. Placing RP's in Navaho will only last so long (I think this is Rons point).
I dont remember P4 of spaceshot from my 1984 ascent. We used some pins on the route, but I think mostly that was on the last pitch.
Artists Tears seemed to be a route bound to get damaged. I did the first pitch in 1983 and there were bathook holes and some tenuous placements then. Could a line like AT become sustainable? Would it only be through beefier fixed gear or could it have become more sustainable through "constructive scarring"? Combination of both? Could it be sustainable by skill alone? (doubtful)
One may be led to think that "constructive scarring" may dumb down AT so anyone with gear could do it. I don't know. On the other hand we now have a route, a fine line on a really cool wall that is apparently f**ed up and may require the drill to become sustainable as the fragile features were broken off through the years.
I dont know what the right answer is, and while I think both of you have valid points, I do think at some point routes with fragile features or as this thread started out with "updating rivets" must be either upgraded for the route to survive, or the route will no longer be climbable.
One of my first things I posted on this site was an objection to the hood ornament placed on El Cap by one of the leading "trad climbers" of the day (not dissin' Leo, but dissin' the hood ornament). Many argued that a hole is a hole, fill it with whatever you want. Obviously, those that feel like a 3/8" fatty replacing a poor rivet dont agree with this.
I do not always agree with Piton Ron, but I do think he is right when looking to the future, route sustainability will and is an issue. I am not smart enough to have the answers though...
Afterthought - I hate to think its Rons brilliance that gives him this insight, I would rather believe that he stumbled into thinking this way and through obnoxious stubborness ended up having a valid point. But alas, obnoxious stubborness can be a virtue as well if climbing desert walls is your forte...
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