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andanother
climber
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Jun 19, 2006 - 08:54pm PT
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mungeclimber wrote:
"the route names are facts
the route stars are ideas
the route ratings are part of a system
none of the later are copyrightable, per se."
In my opinion this isn't a matter of legality. While his actions might be legal, they are done in very poor taste.
johnr9q said "it's a lot of work". Yeah, it sure is. Even plagiarism takes time. Compiling a guidebook takes time. If guidebook authors could simply sit down and flip through pages of a book to get that info, their jobs would be a whole lot easier.
So the guy isn't selling the info. He's not making a profit. But he is, in essence, taking money away from the people that spent thousands of hours obtaining the original info. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical.
It's the same reason why Randy Vogel ruffled a few feathers when he published a "Mammoth Area Select" guide a few years ago. He wasn't breaking any laws, but he sure did piss off a handful of people.
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Eric Kendle
Trad climber
Phoenix
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Jun 19, 2006 - 10:36pm PT
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Eric K opines: Susan, retract those claws baby!
What are you frickin people, Bible thumpers, hanging on every word. Give it a break!
And Paul B bloviates: As to John R's thoughtful query, I think OCD is the only description that truly applies, and his daily Paxil greatly reduces the symptoms :-) As John was one of my early climbing mentors, I can assure everyone that I sat through many a diatribe about how important it is to support guidebook authors. Although John has climbed most of the "starred" (don't want to get into that debate) routes in JT, he has been eagerly awaiting the publication of Randy's latest guidebook.
So why doesn't a fellow OCD'er do John a big favor and provide the information he has requested?
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susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
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Jun 19, 2006 - 10:52pm PT
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Eric Kendle - wow that's a name I haven't heard in a while. I thought you dropped from the face of the earth! (no pun intended)
"retract those claws baby"
You should know me better than that....I'm a pussycat and this guy John doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work that goes into publishing a guide book.
I've got no problem with him using his sick time to compare guides, heck I think there are a lot of people on this forum that may even fall victim to transferring personal beta/details from one edition to another which is a bit of a drag. But the PROBLEM is the solicitation of others to the dark side.
My original post stated my views....you guys should stop trying so hard to wind me up. And that goes especially to you Locker!
-Susan
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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Yeh, you mean I ruffled Marty's feathers. Marty apparently felt threatened enough (because we actually own property on the East Side and climbed there all the time) he had to resort to printing libelous statements in his last guide. Not wishing to sink to his level, I didn't sue him and PC.
The truth is I had climbed in those areas many years and actually did more than 95% of every route in the guide I produced. And got info from locals and people like Big Al, Hensel and Louie for stuff Marty hadn't even printed before or routes he hadn't climbed himself. I'm not sure how this is tantamount to ripping someone else's work off.
If you are going to print smack, you better get the facts right.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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andanother and Susan: Do you people actually know how to read? Seems like everyone else gets it but you two. Why don't you reread my second post 10 or more times and see if anything clicks.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 12:18am PT
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The English used to require that the author of a climbing guidebook had to have climbed every route in the book. Up until the 1960s or 70s, anyway. I'm not sure this led to greater consistency - we all have good days and less-good days. But it did ensure that all knowledge was first-hand.
I wonder if there is now any climbing guidebook, anywhere in the world, where the author(s) has climbed every route?
The English also used to control, or more accurately monopolize, guidebook production. A given club would in effect be recognized as having the "rights" to an area, and it in turn would appoint the author.
In Squamish we now have two competing guidebooks. One is a full guide for Squamish and area. The other is a select guide for the area, and more. Both very fine publications. How the world of climbing has changed, eh?
Anders
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susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
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Jun 20, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Seems I can read, although I'm quickly loosing interest in the text.
"Seems like everyone else gets it but you two."
Really? My bad.
Go ahead buy guides, waste endless hours comparing between versions, make list, post online the page number, route number star changes, grade changes and where the new potty is. I don't really care. My original post was suggesting more time doing the fun stuff....which for most of us is CLIMBING.
But if that's your idea of fun than have at it. I'm done.
-Susan
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:02am PT
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How did I miss an Eastern Sierra select guidebook?
I have every guidebook know to man, or red haired woman.
All I want to know is whether a route I did in Josh is going to make it into the big book!
heh, there was a time during the purple book usage that reading FA history was all I would do between climbing trips.
That's f'd up. We all should climb more.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 03:11am PT
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I've always found it strange that some guidebooks don't provide the year of the first ascent, and the name of the climbers, right with the description. Particularly in areas with history, such as Yosemite, it's very relevant to assessment of the challenge. If, for example, a route was an eight pitch "5.9" route, done in 1964 by Royal Robbins, you can be pretty sure of a struggle. If it's a generic 2004 half-pitch bolted route of the same grade, it may not matter.
Admittedly, it might be a little more challenging to put FA information on a topo - but it's worth considering.
Anders
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Charles Maguire
Trad climber
in utero
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:55am PT
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What a colossal bunch of complete and utter wankers seem to infest this forum. I’m sure that buried in the chaff are a number of people that actually climb with some regularity, but one would never know it.
The impertinence and disrespect that some of you show to a fellow who is simple trying to share a little beta is beyond rude. John is one of the most regular climbers I know, and I’m damn sure spends a lot more money on gear, guides and park fees than the likes of “Susan”, “Andanother” and the other condescending tosser’s that spend more on broadband connections than supporting guidebook authors.
As is typical of the ranting of many on these "hallowed pages", little is actually known about the person (victim) before he/she is dismantled in public. Let me enlighten….
John is a twice decorated (Bronze Star included) Vietnam vet, former Firefighter and career engineer. He successfully raised a family, built two houses and is now retired at age 61. He climbs like a 20 year old and has the most consistent good attitude of any climber I’ve ever known. He can lead 5.12 (on a good day) has put up many fine lines and replaced more manky bolts than the vast majority of forum contributors. His last trip a couple of weeks ago to the Valley went like this: Day 1 West Face El Cap, Day 2 Lost Arrow Chimney (yes the whole thing), Day 3 "rest day" (did first 4 pitches of Stoners Hwy), Day 4 Astroman, Day 5 Never Say Dog. How many of you disparaging blowhards could keep up with that? I dare say Werner could but he’s probably done them all a dozen times (they were firsts for John).
Anyway, slander me as you like I care not, but show some damn respect for your elders unless you’re willing to meet the man and tell him to his face.
And by the way “Susan” John was tying figure eights when you were still pissing in your diaper
Regards and apologies to the others
Aidan Maguire
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 21, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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For those that don’t want to read Charles Maguires post, I’ll summarize it for you:
John climbs a lot, so OBVIOUSLY he is right on this (and every other) matter.
John fought in the Vietnam War, so OBVIOUSLY it is OK for him to cheat guidebook authors out of a little bit of money.
While everyone seems to agree that John’s actions are disrespectful and done in poor taste, that doesn’t matter because he’s old and he climbs hard.
Since none of you have “credentials” or “big names”, your opinions do not matter. On anything. The topic we are discussing isn’t really climbing related. But because John climbs hard and went to war, his questionable ethics (on ANY subject) are acceptable. Period.
Charles read through the entire thread, yet somehow missed the point.
that’s about it.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 21, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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Geez, so much slander over something so little. John got hassled because someone thinks he's trying to screw guide authors. John chimes in and says he isn't. Case closed, no?
FWIW, I've met John and climbed with him. He's a hell of a nice guy, a good climber, and honest. And maybe, just maybe, he wants to find out where the new routes are!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:22pm PT
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Newsflash: the new routes are in the new guide.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:27pm PT
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but how do you know they are new?
Do you have to have both guides? I sure as hell can't remember what I've done...
maybe I should start writing them down.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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Aidan (Charles): I suspect that many of the participants on this forum might not even know the climbs you claim I did last week. Maybe if you said I did "Nutcracker" in a day they could relate. I also suspect that many of the writers herein know the likes of John L and Randy V occasionally read these pages so they dream their writing skills might be "found" and launch them into new career writing for the Mags. I think John and Randy might be more interested in their climbing skills as opposed to their writing skills. (Susan I know you read this) (I do, however, respect Susan for not standing behind anonymity)
John Robinson, Elk Grove, Ca
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 21, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
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Gee....temper, tempers, folks!
I think some people just disagree, and there's no real need to toss nasties, is there? This damned internet - so easy to forget we are people behind the usernames.
"And by the way “Susan” John was tying figure eights when you were still pissing in your diaper"
Unless Susan is really very young(and maybe she is), I think that statement isn't accurate. A quick search for the OP's name, + the keyword "rock climbing" showed up his rc.com profile(same username as here, so if it isn't him, it's quite the coincidence!). Anyway, it says he's been climbing 15 years. Member since 2001, so add another 5, in case he hasn't updated that profile in those years.
Guidebook author who climbs all the routes - Dick Williams, for the Gunks. Not only has he made it a point to do so on the update oflast year's Trapps book, he is doing so for the next Nears book. Plus, a good number of the routes are his FA's or FFA's in the first place.
Listing of Yosemite climbs - Even I know of every route mentioned, and have vague bits of imformation about them, and I am a 3rd season newbie, and never been to Yosemite.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jun 21, 2006 - 10:58pm PT
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Dear Mr. Robinson,
Gonna hit that Nutcracker either this weekend or the next. Hope there's no crowds. It'll be my hardest (outdoor) lead to date, fingers crossed!
You sound like a swell chum, care to spare the beta for the 'Cracker? I only got the 1674 Miwok guide to the Valley and she ain't in there.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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Hey CharlesMaguire,
The above was your first (and only) post on the Supertopo forum. You just got here, yet you can somehow make generalizations about the majority of the people that post here.
How does that work?
"...and the other condescending tosser’s that spend more on broadband connections than supporting guidebook authors.
"
That is probably true, since guidebooks get printed once every few years and the internet is a monthly bill.
So I spend $30 every few years on a new guidebook, which isn't much compared to what I spend on my internet bills. But it's a lot more than your cheap friend John spends, rest assured. (If you have any doubts, scroll up and read his initial post in this thread. You know, the one where he says he doesn't want to spend money on a new guidebook and is wondering if someone could trade him a copy).
You're not doing a very good job of sticking up for your friend.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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another thought for CharlesMaguire.
He claims that the majority of the people on here have zero climbing experience. Yet just now there is a thread titled "What route is this?". Take a look at it. Someone posted a photo taken from a route, and it was named within 20 minutes.
It's a fairly common game played on this forum. Someone posts a photo with little/no background info, and others name the climb/pitch/whatever.
How does that work?
If the people on here don't really climb, how could they answer such riddles?
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e$
Mountain climber
wilson, wyo.
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:42pm PT
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andanother wrote:
"(If you have any doubts, scroll up and read his initial post in this thread. You know, the one where he says he doesn't want to spend money on a new guidebook and is wondering if someone could trade him a copy)."
Huh? The guy does buy guidebooks. I do, too.
Interestingly enough, a buddy of mine was telling me about the new ORG guidebook as he is heading back there after a few years. He said that a few climbs he noticed have been re-graded (harder). John's list would be a nice novelty for someone like my buddy to just see what has "gotten more difficult" since he climbed those routes.
Me? I have the 9th edition and don't climb at the Gorge very often any longer. If I go back, I'd consider buying the 10th edition (the 9th still has a ton of climbs I've never done, nor could I ever do) -- but my decision would be independent of seeing a list of "upgraded" or "re-starred" climbs.
I don't think John gives away too much beta on the "new routes" such that one could get away without buying a new guide. That said, is everyone upset that one might say, "Gee, there really aren't too many "new" routes in this guidebook, so I'll stick with what I've got."????
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