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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 18, 2006 - 10:05pm PT
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When the new Climbing Guide (10th edition) for Owens River Gorge came out, I comparied the previous guide with the new guide and compiled a list of all the differences including new climbs, changes in rating, star value, etc. I ran a post here telling people if they wanted a list of the changes I would send it to them, many climbers responded. I have done the same with the new J Tree guide. It's a lot of work. If someone will compile the changes for the new Tuolumne guide I will trade the list of J tree changes for a list of Tuolumne changes. Maybe both of us will then post changes for both guides here.
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susan peplow
climber
Winner of Diet Challenge!!!
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Jun 18, 2006 - 11:00pm PT
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After reading your post I'm left wondering...why bother? Less time comparing, more time climbing!
You said yourself, "It's a lot of work" to just compare the latest editions. Have you taken into consideration the time, effort and expense it takes for guide book authors such as Marty Lewis and Randy Vogel to make these changes and then publish them to the public?
Personally, I'm thrilled when a new edition comes out and am happy to help financially support those who took the time to make my life easier.
On a side note - in respect to Owens River Gorge specifically. Marty Lewis helped develop this area. Probably before you even knew what a figure 8 was. Bolts, anchors and trail maintance came for FREE so you could climb and enjoy the area. Why don't stop being so cheap and pony up the $30 bucks and consider it a good deed!
Or not, but in my opinion, I find it offensive that you are trying to rip them off!!!
When http://www.maximuspress.com publishes the new (and long overdue) Alabama Hills guide are you going to try to get your beta elsewhere then too?
 Susan Peplow
GIANT SUPPORTER OF THE GUIDEBOOK AUTHORS!!!
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andanother
climber
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Jun 18, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Damn, john.
That is f*#king rude!
And posting this on a website that is supported by guidebook sales? I don't know if you're an idiot, or just a dick.
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jt
Trad climber
joshua tree, ca
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Jun 19, 2006 - 12:09am PT
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idiot or dick?
maybe both.
ever think of getting a job?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jun 19, 2006 - 12:16am PT
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C'mon you lazy detectives.... He is retired, looking for partners midweek, trying to break in to sport 5.12, is a cancer survivor, and just loves the route "Heart of Toad" on Fairview.
The route compiling thingy is lame though.... unless you are in prison and just doing it as a warped Soduku type thing to fill time while you "do your number".
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2006 - 12:17am PT
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Heart of Toad?
Hahahaha
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2006 - 12:18am PT
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Dear Susan and Andanother: Sorry I offended you. I didn't realize that people would get that out of my post. I guess people could use the info I provide to update their old guide, actually that would be almost impossible as I don't refer to the climbs by name just by climb number or climb letter and page number. I find it interesting to know what the grade or star rating changes are from revision to revision and when I'm on a specific formation it is good to know what new climbs are there that I haven't tried before. My intention is for people to purchase the new guide and mark it up. I buy just about every new guide that comes out in the West and support the guidebook authors efforts every way I can. An Idaho guide book author once told me he made 29 cents an hour publishing guide books so everything possible should be done to encourage authors. I have written many nasty letters to people that plegerize (probably spelled it wrong) published guide books. I give people at the crags a bad time if they are using a zeroxed copy.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Jun 19, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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Obsessive Compulsive Disorder crossed with a complete lack of respect for those who have done the work will have this affect cheap ass motherf**ers!!
We should do something about this weenie!
Jingy
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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Steal from all the bastard guidebook authors, F'em if they think they own the rock. Go get em john.
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Mini
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:11am PT
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"heeey, I'm not trying to scam anyone here..."
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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I can't decide which of the following I am:
Offensive
F*#king Rude
Idiot
Dick
Lame
Obsessive Compulsive
Cheap Ass Mother F**ker
Weenie
Flip-Flopper ;-)
traitor ;-)
jerk ;-)
gumby ;-)
elities scum ;-)
Maybe all the above?
(Now I remember why I don't get on the climbing forums much)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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Yeah! and you're an indecisive flip-flopper too!!
I can see how folks got the wrong idea, but I buy your explanation and agree that listing the changes does little to exempt anybody from buying the new guide as long as you don't reproduce new topos that weren't in the previous version.
The posting about it would probably boost sales by informing folks of the new edition and showing them what they're getting.
Unless the author merely reprinted the guide with minimal change, in which case it's fair for the buyer to know.
Kind of like the version history that software publishers put out.
That doesn't mean you're not some kind traitor, jerk, gumby, elitist scum. We just haven't got the goods on you yet. Did you have a puppy for breakfast? Toasted or scrambled?
;-)
Karl
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Jun 19, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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copyright gives you ownership of the expression of the original work of authorship. http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html
the route names are facts
the route stars are ideas
the route ratings are part of a system
none of the later are copyrightable, per se.
John's own arrangement is different from the author's expression of those facts, ideas and system ratings.
anyone care to make the counter argument?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 19, 2006 - 06:48pm PT
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I like this Q & A with this title on the Copyright Office website the best:
How do I protect my sighting of Elvis?
But, to the point, since one of my books seems to be at issue here, I thought I'd chim in.
First off, I can see no objection to someone trying to merely complile a list of differences between the last guide and the new Joshua Tree West. I might question why anyone would try, but hey, more power to them (within reason). Frankly, the new guide bears so little resemblance to the old one (except it does cover some of the same formations and older routes), so I'm not sure how you could really list the "differences."
Locker is correct (to a certain degree) that without the help of lots of people, you cannot write a guidebook. This does not mean that it is a simple job of copy, cut (rip) and paste, or that you don't have to climb many of the routes and personally check things out.
Contrary to what was stated, star ratings are not "ideas" (nor an evil plot to send hordes to certain climbs), but opinions, somewhat like ratings. In my case, it ultimately is my opinion. And, once put in written format, copyrightable --- as are the descriptions of: the formations, approaches descents and routes as well as organization and other aspects.
Frankly, I'd be interested to see the original poster's comparison data. Writing guidebooks is an obsession too, and far be it from me to cast aspersions at another obsessive personality.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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Randy: I explained my motives in my second post on this thread and yes I'd be first to admit (along with ALL my climbing buddies and my wife) that I am compulsive. But doing what I did beats watching the boring NBA games in the evening when I'm pooped. (Actually I do watch the last 30 seconds) Noting the changes in the JTree guide probably took me 8 hours or so. I am attaching a copy of the way I indicated the changes for the Owens guide and if someone comes thru with the changes to the new Tuolumne guide I'll post both the Jtree and Tuolumne Changes
The following are the changes of the Owens River Gorge Climbs Guide book between the 10th and the 9th editions. On the far left will be the page number. The next entries (If any) will be letters which indicates climbs in the 10th edition that weren’t in the 9th edition. Next will be a letter and following that will be a grade/star rating. The grade/star rating shown is what was in the 9th edition. Info for pg 54 & 56 have helps to get you going.
If anyone finds errors in my accounting (I’m sure there are) please let me know.
Page 54: New climbs are (They were not in the 9th ediion):
A,E,F and G
55: A
Page 56: On page 56 the letter E climb "Three Stooges" in the
9th edition guide was grade/star rating (10b **)
57 D,G
62 G,I
63 A,B,C; D (**), E (no R in the 9th)
64 B,C,E,F
65 E,G,I
66 A (**), E (*), H (**)
69 A, D, M; F (10c)
71 D (10B, ***)
73 D (11d)
81 O
83 A,G,H; B (11a), J (10b*), M (**)
85 C,J; A (10d), B (***), I (10b)
87 B,C,G,H; A (10c), P (*)
91 A,B,O,P; E (***)
95 K (), U(*), Y(10d***)
97 D,M; B (10b), L (9*), R ()
98 B(***)
103 K,T; B (**)
104 B (11b***)
105 C(**)
106 C,E; A(**)
107 B; D(***)
113 M; D(10b), F(*), G(10d*), H (), O(*)
115 A; J(10a)
119 A,T; G(*), M(***), O12a), Q(10d), R(10d)
121 A; G(10d), H(10b)
123 B(10B)
129 J; B(), D(10c), P(**)
131 B
133 H; K(9), N(11b)
143 F (11b)
145 C (11c)
147 E,L; C(*), D(11b), J(*)
149 A
153 J(11d)
154 G
155 H10d)
159 A(***), G(11a)
162 A(10d*), B(12c), C(*), E(**)
165 C(*)
166 E
174 B,D,E,F
175 A(), C(), H(10c), I(***)
176 E()
179 P,Q; A(10a), D(10c), E(***), G(11b), K(11a)
181 F(***)
183 K; (Climb left out after K “Pimp Nigger” 10b*)
185 J(11c), K(*)
187 B,G,H,I; D(11b)
188 E; C(***), J(*)
189 F; B(10b*)
191 B,E,K; A(***)
195 D,F; B(12B), C(*), E(**)
196 A
197 A(**), E(10c)
199 N,O; D(8), H(11c),
200 D; C(), F(), J(**)
203 C,V; E (10D), M(), U(**)
207 D,E,F,H,J;A(8), K(11c), L(***)
211 B,D; A(11B), N(11b), O(*),P(12c),R()
212 F
221 D(**)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 19, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
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I got the new Meadows Guide, what's new? The topos are downsized and the text upsized. WTF is up with that?? Break out the magifying glass if you want to read the topos. Who had the idea to make the topos so small but the text in 12 pt? The info is in the topos, not in the route names. Wingnuts...
The new Indian Creek book doesn't star routes, giving all routes equal footing when you're in camp looking for things to do. It encourages you to use your eyes and your senses to make a choice about what route to do. Is it better this way? It might make it harder to plan for the next day, but it seems to work for the Creek where there are so many choices at each crag.
As for grid bolting, don't bother with Castle Rock; somebody already beat you to the punch.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2006 - 08:02pm PT
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I love guidebooks too.
I can save you some time though. I compared the Tuolumne Supertopo guide with Reid/Falkenstein Guide....just add stars 'n Rs to every route and you got Supertopo (minus the nice topos of course).
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jun 19, 2006 - 08:04pm PT
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The reason that works for the Creek is that the worst piles there still get 4 out of 5 stars and the rest get 5 except for the way good ones which get 6 out of 5.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 19, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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In the latest Owens guide,
is it possible that someone has broken rule #3:
No Posers ?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Jun 19, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Randy wrote "star ratings are not "ideas" (nor an evil plot to send hordes to certain climbs), but opinions"
If opinion = mental representation, then opinion = idea
it follows then that star ratings = opinions = ideas.
until 'expressed' in whatever tangible medium, they are not copyright protectable, i.e. once a "john" assembles the ideas his own way, it just happends to be a different expression of the same ideas.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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