Largest Study of Prayer to Date Finds No Power to Heal

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WBraun

climber

Mar 31, 2006 - 02:47pm PT

One day a saint was taking a bath in a river. His disciple sat on the bank with the saint's clothes, asana and rosary. The saint noticed a scorpion struggling in the current. Taking pity, he lifted the bedraggled scorpion in his palm and started wading toward the bank.

No sooner had the scorpion recovered than it promptly stung the saint on the palm. The saint felt an unbearable, burning pain shoot up his arm, but he did not drop the scorpion. Instead, he gently shook his hand to encourage the scorpion to move away from the wound.

The saint's disciple, watching from the bank, became alarmed, but did not say anything.

The saint had only taken a few more steps when the scorpion stung him again. A searing pain more intense than the first one went all the way up his arm and throbbed in his hand. The saint staggered and nearly collapsed in the river.

This time the disciple did call out. "Put him down! He will only sting you again. Leave him to his fate. Your kindness is of no value to such a creature. He will learn nothing from it!"

The saint ignored him and continued walking. He had nearly reached the bank when the scorpion stung him for a third time. The pain exploded into his head, lungs, and his heart. The disciple saw a blissful smile appear on the saint's face before he collapsed in to the river. The disciple dragged the saint to the shore, still smiling and still cradling the scorpion in his palm. As soon as they had reached shore, the scorpion crawled away as quickly as it could.

The disciple said after the saint had regained consciousness.

"How can you smile? That wretched creature nearly killed you."

"You are right, my son," said the saint. "But he was only following his dharma, his nature. It is the dharma of a scorpion to sting, and it is the dharma of a saint to save its' life. He is following his dharma and I am following mine. Everything is in its proper place.

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Mar 31, 2006 - 03:28pm PT

"Goddammit..."........(We all talk to God....).........God works in mysterious ways......(An He can keep a secret...)

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Mar 31, 2006 - 03:53pm PT

Prayer might not often work at creating results in line with our limited desires and expectations, but maybe that's not the point.

The scientific method works poorly at making Angels appear and helping us find peace within but that doesn't mean the problem is the scientific method.

Want to know if there's a God or not? For real, not just on blind faith? Seek and you'll find, ask and it will be given. If you can make a test prayer with sincerity, something along the lines of, "God, if you exist, indicate it to me somehow, I'm open to it." Something will somehow find it's way to you.

No blind faith required. Just openness to test and not have a preconceived idea of what will or won't happen.

Life is Magic, full of poetry. Don't let folks imaginary preconceptions of God and Religion spoil it for you. Explore yourself and the mystery.

PEace

Karl

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Mar 31, 2006 - 04:34pm PT

I believe in God.....(And so do the devils, demons, gouls, and Satan.......).........As Bob says....You're gonna have to serve someone.....it might be the Devil, or it might be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve someone.........

Bruce Morris

Social climber

Belmont, California

Mar 31, 2006 - 05:58pm PT

Come on! Mumbo-jumbo always works. That's why it sells so well. Not as good as a steel helmet in a fox hole, though.

atchafalaya

Trad climber

California

Mar 31, 2006 - 06:02pm PT

you bring up a good point Dr.

Medicine, Drs, specialists, etc, for all the hype and $$$$ is mostly worthless. While lawyers were drafting the constitution and figuring out how to create a free country, Doctors were using leaches as a cure. Maybe prayers not so bad.

WBraun

climber

Mar 31, 2006 - 08:57pm PT

If you do not know what is God realization, then how you can speak this nonsense here about God & prayer and how you will be satisfied by the answer?

”You do not know.”

You do not know what is God realization.

Then why do you put this diatribe?

You do not know yourself.

If I say, "Yes, there is god" how you'll understand that I am right? Therefore you should not put all these foolish nonsense realizations about God and prayers.

It has no value.

You do not know yourself what is God realization.

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Mar 31, 2006 - 09:05pm PT

Yep, aid climbing. Thats a time when you will know if you are just pretending to believe in God...or if you are just pretending not to.

-Kate.

Weenis

Trad climber

Tel Aviv

Mar 31, 2006 - 09:12pm PT

Yeah, eveybody is a christian in a foxhole. I'll get right to it, I'm an atheist. Okay. Whenever I've been strung out on some bad lead or place that puts me in grave physical danger I don't start chanting some mantra or praying. I try to concentrate on the circumstance at hand and marshal my skills as a means of self preservation. Like Radical, I've seen "billions" of people die and perhaps worse, be left with a life not worth living. What was my role in that? Well, I offered my resources whatever they may have been, stayed clear in my head as best I could and took it one shot at a time. I respect others beliefs and hope that they work for them as my belief in the sciences has tended to work pretty well for me. People have prayed for me, whole churches of them and I thank them. I'm sure it made them feel good and that good reflects throughout the community.
I don't like to use the word prayer as it has a typically religious sound to it. But when I do some thing like that it is to try and clear my thoughts, concentrate on the task at hand and accomplish it successfully. A friend of mine's husband died two weeks ago while snowboarding. He suffocated in a tree well. Bad scene, I've not prayed for them, I haven't asked her how she's doing (that's evident). I showed up and took up the slack, made it so she could hang out (pray if she wanted), and offered my resources to whatever means I could. Community.
This "doctrine" has worked for me for decades and it is only my thing. If Christian prayer works for you or someone else by all means... one never knows... do we?

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Apr 1, 2006 - 02:08am PT

Let's say your kids pray to the Parent God that they should only have to eat chocolate and never go to school again. Are they going to get their wish? Does that mean that parent's don't exist?

Would climbing be worth doing if it was never stressful, hard, or challenging?

Life is like that. This life is not about having things the way we want them. Thinking prayer is some kind of tool to kiss ass and get things your way is just not understanding the game. Much of our pain is simply resistance to reality rather than direct pain itself. Accept.

LIfe is like climbing. You learn and grow from the hell of it as much or more than from the heaven of it. Part of the game is that we do it in almost total (Spiritual) darkness.

Don't want to believe in God? Go right ahead. I don't think it matters to God one bit. If you take a good look at your life, you may find that everything that's ever happened to you has lead you to where you are right now. It's your life to make what you will of it, discover what you can. Wanna whine and blame God or the lack of God? Nobody suffers but you.

Peace

Karl

Gunkie

climber

East Coast US

Apr 1, 2006 - 08:44am PT

We fixed up to Sickle Ledge on a hot September morning leaving the bag at the bottom of the lines. When it cooled off later in the evening, we hauled everything to the top of the 4th class, 5th pitch. We hung around on Sickle in the early night talking to some folks who bivied there. Then we rapped off, planning on returning early the next day to blast off. We get to the bottom, walk out to the car @ around 9PM. We get to the car and I cannot find the car keys on my harness. I then prayed to God that my partner had the keys. He did not. I left them in that little pouch in the top of the haul bag at the top of the 5th pitch of the Nose. We walked back in, jugged back up, reclimbed the 5th pitch, got the keys, down climbed the 5th pitch, rapped off, walked back out and got in the car. It was 1 AM. We took the next day off.

There is no God ;)

Gary

climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Apr 1, 2006 - 10:35am PT

I'vee prayed to date SO many times, and never any results.

Texplorer

Trad climber

Las Vegas

Apr 1, 2006 - 11:20am PT

Amen to this post healy!!!!

Prayer and religion for that matter is for the weak minded that can't face the fact that life is sometimes cruel, unfair, and that the universe will not eventually be made fair now or after you die.

Ultimately we are all a computer program created by nature. Like all operating systems at some future point we will crash. There is nothing mystical about that instead of 0's and 1's we are simply A's, C's, T's, and G's. The fact that we developed "consciencousness" is an anomoly in the program so to speak.

Your life is insignificant in the world as are everyone elses. Therefore do what makes you happy and be glad that your life is not as sucky as some unfortunate souls.

Have a great day and don't waste tommorrow's great climbing weather in church.

WBraun

climber

Apr 1, 2006 - 10:11pm PT

Dr. F

"There's no doubt the normal human can be led to believe anything ...."

And you are above normal? We should listen to you above God the Supreme Being?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2006 - 01:41am PT

Speaking of leeches, do they pray? Do they have their own god or do they use ours? And do they go to heaven? Just where along the tree of life do species start counting to god? Or is only us? I'm sure as hell not going if there are no elephants in heaven. Also, I want some assurance that the Plague, Marburg, and Ebola are going straight to hell and won't be joining us...