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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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Great post Dingus
It's worth clarifying that rather than a blatant "conspiracy" where some skull and bones meeting is convened to decide "we need a war to distract people from uncovering us" that much happens on a level that's semi-conscious and reflective.
The balance of power is like an ecosystem that organically responds to keep it's status quo intact.
and it is not monolithic. There are many levels that serve to preserve the secrecy and power of the elite without even knowing they are doing so, and also there are pockets of resistance that don't want to go along. The military itself resisted the last attempt at going into Iran.
It's is suspiciously convenient that we've got all these troops freeing up from Iraq. Guess it's now or never to be staged right there, ready to act
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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It seems a very simple compromise to me... you want war? Pick up a rifle and get to it, otherwise shutthefcuk up about it.
That's like saying that if you want your house fire put out, don't call the sire department, get a hose and put it out yourself. If you can't put out your own fire, shutthefcuk up about it?
Even the intelligent people here seem like hypocrites sometimes. Being for or against a particular war is one thing but a blanket statement that individual people should always fight in any war they support is nonsense.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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rectorsquid
That's not what DMT meant and you just twisted and projected an unintelligent conclusion .....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Now, it sounded too far out to me, but you can find this story on the internet.
i found stories about her on the internet too....
and this guy has his own website...
and about the part of a covert war....duh. its better than an all out war. i would rather us use stuxnet than boots on the ground. a whole let less collateral damage.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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For someone too old to serve in a new war, they should at least be willing to pay increased taxes to fully fund any trillion dollar adventure in real time, rather than in debt
kind of a mystery who benefits and gets hurt by huge oil price spikes. As long as it's sold in dollars, there still this hidden money game in play.
Thing is, we do stupid things that bring little benefit even against our real interests. Iraq, Afghanistan.. what did we get out of those wars?
Fatty: Afghan war looks more bullshit the more I look. 9-11 was not planned there, and none of the Hijackers were Afghani. Al Queda was a CIA creation boogyman. check out what the BBC reported
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mztfFdpd1Rk
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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and about the part of a covert war....duh. its better than an all out war. i would rather us use stuxnet than boots on the ground. a whole let less collateral damage.
Problem is the covert war is quickly leading to real war (duh) just like it would if Iranian spies were blowing sh#t up in the US
Peace
Karl
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I grew up in the same society you did, where turning the other cheek is perceived as a puss move, eh Spartan?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Venezuela, Canada, offshore California, oil sands, and we have more natural gas than we know what to do with.
Hmmm... California oil is good for making plastic but not refined fuels. Canada, well we can probably bully them.
Venezuela, oh yeah, maybe that's why the US backed (or at least tacitly supported and echoed the false media spin of) the unsuccessful coup and kidnapping of Hugo Chavez. He was democratically elected in a landslide in part to stop US domination of the oil interests that propagated a huge divide between the rich and poor in that country. He has been portrayed as a criminal threat in the US. Coincidentally, he stands in the way of US strategic work-around to oil supply when mideast Armageddon hits.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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war,
Although oil cost would rise, my guess 30%, the world has enough resources for some time if the Straight of Hormuz was closed for six months. Venezuela, Canada, offshore California, oil sands, and we have more natural gas than we know what to do with.
The evil one
Do you even try to tell truth? (since I know you're smarter than that)
The world doesn't not have excess capacity. Peak oil is here. If the Straights get cut off, it would take far longer than six months to significantly increase any of those other sources
As for being a peacenik. Other countries get by just fine without constantly killing people. Looking at the conflicts we've had in the world, it's almost always a result of dealing with the aftershocks of western colonialism (Vietnam, the Israeli situation, Iraq) or some dictator that we installed at some point (Iraq-Saddam, Iran-Shah, Vietnam puppet leaders, Panama and on and on)
Listen to Eisenhower's (R) farewell address warning of the military Industrial complex and understand how much of our economy is based on building, exploding, and exporting weapons and what peace would cost the big money behind those things
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
...Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States cooperations -- corporations.
Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together....
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Believing OWS and an Iran war are related could be a stretch for people.
OWS is obviously maturing and developing both political ego and arrogance - and that's from a supporter. Let's not get carried away here. Iran, Shia vs. Sunni, and the ME in general have their own gravity, drivers, momentum, and intrigue without OWS. Not to mention the OWS timeline is infinitesimally short relative to global response times.
Can't be far from being a viable challenger to the Green Party at this rate...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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It's more of a trigger issue than anything. We've been poised to hit Iran for a long time, it's just with troops leaving Iraq and the need to get away from OWS, the balance is tipping toward attack rather than restraint
Peace
Karl
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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For you Karl: date of post Sept 30th 2009 - "imminent".
Thought I would start a new thread as military action against Iran is imminent. Let's see if President Obama has any courage and participates against the rogue nation. Look for Hezbollah to begin an offensive against Israel first as a distraction.
Hmmmm, Israel just got two new nuke firing subs, what could they be used for?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j33iXawr-RpZpCmlIkVylnRAoUyg
The evil one
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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... it's just with troops leaving Iraq and the need to get away from OWS, the balance is tipping toward attack rather than restraint
At this point OWS is still just a nuisance relative to things like the euro crisis, the 2012 election, Chinese monetary policy, and the ME in general. Its challenge is to remain relevant and viable through the run up to the 2012 election. It, and other backlashes from the banking crisis and this year's over-reaching of the republican state-level agenda are worrisome to republicans and rightfully so as it acts as a natural political balance to the Tea Party.
But conspiracies of the [very real] fabric of bankers and corporate directors being able to micro-manage political decisions across a web of nations (at what would amount to hyper-velocities under the best of circumstances) is 'fanciful' at best.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Is there one people, one voice, one interest? Could someone invite it/him/her to the forum?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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More war on a war weary country, pushed by people who have never fought in a war themselves. Iraq and Afhganistan will dissolve into civil war once the american presence has been drwn down. All signs point to it, and we'll go on to destabilize yet another middle eastern country, paving way for even more islamic fundamentalist governments. Gee, lookit Egypt..big surprise there. Fomenting change for the betterment of oil flow. Insane
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Elite money lies around in its sh#t for two months? Can't they pay somebody to wipe their ass?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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At this point OWS is still just a nuisance relative to things like the euro crisis, the 2012 election, Chinese monetary policy, and the ME in general. Its challenge is to remain relevant and viable through the run up to the 2012 election. It, and other backlashes from the banking crisis and this year's over-reaching of the republican state-level agenda are worrisome to republicans and rightfully so as it acts as a natural political balance to the Tea Party.
But conspiracies of the [very real] fabric of bankers and corporate directors being able to micro-manage political decisions across a web of nations (at what would amount to hyper-velocities under the best of circumstances) is 'fanciful' at best.
It's not exactly micro-managing but check out how it works in this example"
Trillions were secretly loaned to certain banks at virtually no interest, and those banks often turned around and invested that loaned money in Treasuries at 3%, earning billions (like 17 billion) in interest at taxpayer expense. That's not 17 billion in loans needing to be paid back but 17 billion of taxpayer money that was expended for exactly zero benefit to anyone but bank profits. No oversight by the government, no knowledge by congress, Why should the fed have such corrupt insider dealing power?
Why isn't this a huge scandal at a time when there is so much handwringing about the 560 million lost in the solar company investment? Because it's become taboo by mainstream media to question the role of the Fed because the Big finance owns them in a roundabout way.
This corrupt system is the root of big money and will of course strenuously resist reform, audit, or elimination/nationalization. Of course! Duh. We've already seen that they resisted the proposal to audit them. Why do they need such secrecy and lack of oversight?
And this system can only stay in place if people are relatively ignorant about it. So OWS is a huge threat because now we realize (thanks to Bloomberg as well) that the Fed can create and loan out 17 trillion, more than our entire national debt, without knowledge or approval from anyone. Awareness of this threatens the very top power and money of the country. You know they are going to fight that. Resist that.
and as long as we keep in a state of war, people are afraid to question the system and vast amounts of money get pissed without accountability (like Rumsfeld's missing 2.4 Trillion, where did that go?)
We're in dangerous times. Explosions are happening and drones shot down over sovereign territory. We have to watch closely before it's too late.
Peace
Karl
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Explosions are happening and drones shot down over sovereign territory.
Some evidence now seems to indicate that the Iranians figured out the codes and electronically hijacked that drone from Afghanistan and guided it into Iranian airspace where they tried to land it and it crashed.
from http://www.debka.com/article/21545/
..."Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
US stealth drone RQ-170
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has placed the Revolutionary Guards on a war footing amid fears that the West and Israel are about to attack their nuclear program, the London Telegraph, which has good ties with British intelligence, reported early Tuesday, Dec. 6.
Monday, debkafile reported increasing indications that the Middle East is set for war, including an attack on Iran, between mid-December 2011 and mid-January 2012.
In obedience to Khamenei's directive to take all necessary measures to protect the regime, the Guards chief Gen. Mohammed Ali Jaafari has raised the operational readiness status of the country's forces in preparation for external strikes and covert attacks. He ordered Iran's arsenal of long-range Shahab missiles redistributed to secret sites around the country where they would be safe from enemy attack and could be used to launch retaliatory strikes; Guards units scattered to preset defense lines and air force "rapid reaction units" deployed after carrying out extensive exercises for responding to an enemy air attack on nuclear and strategic military targets.
Saturday, Dec. 3, Israel's defense minister Ehud Barak, when asked about a covert war against Iran, denied it was taking place. Twenty-hours later, this clandestine war peaked in a major coup for Iran, its capture of the sophisticated US RQ-170 Sentinel stealth reconnaissance drone. Tehran reported that, apart from slight damage, the aircraft was shot down complete with all its top-secret electronic systems in working condition.
An American military source confirmed that Iran had the RQ-170, but added there was "absolutely no indication the drone was shot down."
This leads to the conclusion that the Iranians were able to control the drone from a distance (over Afghanistan) and guide it across the border to land to Iran, say debkafile's military sources. The slight damage would then apply to the wings and may have been caused when it was brought in to land by an Iranian crew unused to handling an electronic warfare craft.
Our sources add that possession of the drone is more than just a major intelligence coup for Tehran; it has acquired an important military edge before any overt military operation has been launched. Western and Israeli war planners now have cause to fear that Iran has penetrated the heart of their most secret intelligence and electronic technological hardware for striking its nuclear infrastructure. If Tehran is capable of reaching out and guiding an American stealth drone into landing from a distance, it may also be able to control the systems of other aircraft, manned or unmanned.
This feat recalls Hizballah's surprise attack on an Israeli missile boat in the 2006 Lebanon war when its Chinese-made shore-to-ship C-802 missile was enabled by Iranian-manned coastal radar interference to override the ship's advanced electronic defense systems and so put the Israeli Navy out of action within range of the Lebanese coast.
According to an expert quoted by the Telegraph's senior military commentator Con Coughlin, the campaign of assassinations, cyber war and sabotage of recent weeks "looks like the 21st century form of war. "
and http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2011/12/06/iran-shares-captured-u-s-drones-with-russia/
Wherein Iran did the deed as noted above and is sharing the intel with Russia....
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