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apogee
climber
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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I really wanted to engage thoughtfully in this thread, but the heavenly image of Scarlett has completely distracted me.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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I think a lot of people are missing Rick A's point about adding bolts to Super Chicken. This wasn't a case of Rick not being able to stop and drill. It was the case of him climbing so far below his max level and the desire to get off the climb that he just didn't stop to place a few bolts. If you remember his story, he didn't even place any bolts for an anchor.
It's one thing to go back on a route that you were totally wigged out on and add a few bolts. In the case of Super Chicken it was just laziness and impatience that kepts bolts from being put in.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2011 - 05:29am PT
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flyingkiwi1: That that focus and perspective is worth climbing for, but that it's not worth dying for - not anymore. And that there are other ways to get it.
So what does that boil down to for you - that your climbing should be safe or that climbing should be safe?
Off White: Cragnshag nailed it pretty well. You don't have kids, do you Joe? Death and dismemberment while climbing is a lot less romantic once you think you might live past 30, and certainly once you have children who rely on you.
Actually, at 59 I've got a daughter about to crank out her senior year at UW/Seattle. And "death and dismemberment" while climbing has never been "romantic" for me so, young or old, I've always taken risk management seriously and that means sometimes I back off of things, sometimes I'm on R or even (rarely) X rated FA territory depending on what I'm trying to accomplish, but always with a keen eye on the dial, a clear understanding of what I'm doing, the risks I'm assuming, and why. When I'm no longer prepared to manage such things, I'll back off of that level of risks, but I don't anticipate my climbing changing otherwise.
cragnshag: Plenty of old folks out there who have walked the on the edge. They have earned the right to change their mind about something so personel as an FA. - No need minimize them for that.
I'm not minimizing anyone for choices they make for themselves - I'm way more interested in when such folks remain active climbers with a different risk management profile and how that influences the broader (younger) culture relative to the expectation of 'safe climbing'.
G_Gnome: Taking silly risks because you have too much testosterone and giving up on adventure because you are too lazy to stay in shape are not the same at all. And rationalizing either is just fooling yourself.
I agree for the most part, but risk perception in humans is a funny business let alone in climbing. And I have to say that, whether BITD or today, I've always been utterly fascinated by the difference between 'testosterone' and reasoned risk-taking - I've always felt each is tied to fairly identifiable personalities though I have been fooled by a few folks in that regard. I'd also comment that more of the risks I see these days are of the unintended and uniformed variety than overt, clear-eyed risk-taking.
From where I sit the question has fast been becoming whether [the majority of] climbing should be 'safe' from a subjective or objective perspective. By that I mean making the climbs 'safe' rather than the climbers. And what role and influence do we elders play in such a transition?
Is the future of climbing sanitizing it of risk for the vast majority of climbers while concentrating it into a few 'heroic' [commercial] few? You could claim that's the way it's always been, but I would claim the scales and ratios are so incredibly different today that climbing overall is taking on a risk distribution that's rapidly becoming indistinguishable from traditional sports.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Sep 27, 2011 - 07:57am PT
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(good writing in this thread so far!)
Sometimes a bolt and hanger is a useful safety device.
Sometimes it is a human form of cat spray.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 27, 2011 - 08:20am PT
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Boy psychology: the odds are with me.
Grown men: Eventually the odds are going to catch up with me.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 27, 2011 - 09:38am PT
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Joe wrote: Is the future of climbing sanitizing it of risk for the vast majority of climbers while concentrating it into a few 'heroic' [commercial] few? You could claim that's the way it's always been, but I would claim the scales and ratios are so incredibly different today that climbing overall is taking on a risk distribution that's rapidly becoming indistinguishable from traditional sports.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's you only did what was available (lead ground up) or you top roped. Sport climbing changed the game. Change is good.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 10:57am PT
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I started climbing in the Red River Gorge in the mid-70's. There was one bolt in the whole place, protecting the "crux" 5.2 move in the wide chimney that was the easiest route on Tower Rock. That was the first bolt that I encountered. I remember sometime in the late 70's - early 80's making the comment to my climbing partner that "if we rappelled down some of these cool overhanging pocketed faces and placed some bolts like the one on Tower Rock, we could lead them and it would be really cool. Of course the idea was then considered blasphemous (and obviously still is to some folks). When Porter Jarrard came up to KY from NC, he saw the same potential, but decided to act on it - and the rest is history. I'm 52 and never had a problem with bolts, and decided to start bolting routes at City of Rocks in the late 80's when the top-flight climbers began putting up 5.8's with bolts 30 ft. apart or more. If you can't add bolts to an existing route, and I believe you shouldn't without permission, that effectively removes these fine lines from consideration by recreational climbers - who don't have either the time or desire to develop the confidence required to climb them. I was whining about how the style of the FA basically robbed these lines from the vast majority of climbers, when someone told me something like "quit whining and put up your own routes in your own style" - and the rest is history. My first route at the City saw more ascents in it's first year than those run-outs see in 10. There are many different yardsticks for measuring the success or quality of a route. One is what it says about the "balls" of the first ascentionists, but another is how often it is climbed. The old style routes at the city are still there in their original condition should anyone desire to "flex their head". People climb for many different reasons. For some folks, clipping a bolt every 6-8 feet is as much risk as they desire. Climb, and let climb, I say. Over the years, the negative comments from the elitists about my "over-bolted gumby routes" has been drowned out by a flood of appreciation by recreational climbers. The older I get, the easier it is to just tune out the elitists. I've also found that as I've gotten older, fatter, weaker, and accumulated more responsibilities, I have even more appreciation for those "over-bolted gumby routes" and more than once I've had an aging hard-man tell me how they can now really appreciate my routes.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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Actually, at 59 I've got a daughter about to crank out her senior year at UW/Seattle. And "death and dismemberment" while climbing has never been "romantic" for me so, young or old, I've always taken risk management seriously and that means sometimes I back off of things, sometimes I'm on R or even (rarely) X rated FA territory depending on what I'm trying to accomplish, but always with a keen eye on the dial, a clear understanding of what I'm doing, the risks I'm assuming, and why. When I'm no longer prepared to manage such things, I'll back off of that level of risks, but I don't anticipate my climbing changing otherwise.
Congratulations to your daughter, that's really great.
I know you don't really do alpine climbing, though one can argue that new routes on Beacon Rock share certain potentially loose rock and vegetation issues, so I think this next bit is relevant. Relatively recent deaths by folks like Craig Leubben and Dallas Kloke on moderate routes and places I've been are suggesting to me that the stories I've always told myself about managing risk and making choices are perhaps a little more fictional than I'd imagined, as much self delusion as clear eyed assessment. I think my common post climbing declaration, "Hey, we cheated death again" is perhaps a little less ironic than I thought.
I don't think I'm any less true to my roots, I've always been cautious and injury averse. Getting older hasn't changed my goals or style, but the greater experience has influenced my understanding of where risk lies. Big icy north faces I once coveted are no longer on my tick list, but that's not because I'm tossing my history and tradition out the window, its that more experience informs my calculation. Physical changes in strength and condition have always been part of the equation too, so getting a different result may be also a product of that, not an abdication of history and tradition.
We're different people, and your level of acceptable risk may well be higher than mine, but you might consider that your clear understanding of what you're doing could be much less rational than you tell yourself it is. In any case though, we're none of us in position to be dictating to others what risk they must accept, so all the best to you in your climbing.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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I started climbing in the Red River Gorge in the mid-70's. There was one bolt in the whole place, protecting the "crux" 5.2 move in the wide chimney that was the easiest route on Tower Rock. That was the first bolt that I encountered. I remember sometime in the late 70's - early 80's making the comment to my climbing partner that "if we rappelled down some of these cool overhanging pocketed faces and placed some bolts like the one on Tower Rock, we could lead them and it would be really cool. Of course the idea was then considered blasphemous (and obviously still is to some folks). When Porter Jarrard came up to KY from NC, he saw the same potential, but decided to act on it - and the rest is history. I'm 52 and never had a problem with bolts, and decided to start bolting routes at City of Rocks in the late 80's when the top-flight climbers began putting up 5.8's with bolts 30 ft. apart or more. If you can't add bolts to an existing route, and I believe you shouldn't without permission, that effectively removes these fine lines from consideration by recreational climbers - who don't have either the time or desire to develop the confidence required to climb them. I was whining about how the style of the FA basically robbed these lines from the vast majority of climbers, when someone told me something like "quit whining and put up your own routes in your own style" - and the rest is history. My first route at the City saw more ascents in it's first year than those run-outs see in 10. There are many different yardsticks for measuring the success or quality of a route. One is what it says about the "balls" of the first ascentionists, but another is how often it is climbed. The old style routes at the city are still there in their original condition should anyone desire to "flex their head". People climb for many different reasons. For some folks, clipping a bolt every 6-8 feet is as much risk as they desire. Climb, and let climb, I say. Over the years, the negative comments from the elitists about my "over-bolted gumby routes" has been drowned out by a flood of appreciation by recreational climbers. The older I get, the easier it is to just tune out the elitists. I've also found that as I've gotten older, fatter, weaker, and accumulated more responsibilities, I have even more appreciation for those "over-bolted gumby routes" and more than once I've had an aging hard-man tell me how they can now really appreciate my routes.
Thanks, this is refreshing to read.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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Most get out of shape and inevitably somewhat lazy as they age. It take a ton or work and lots of pain to stay at the top of your game and most quit playing at some point. I don't think there is anything wrong but it kind of bothers me to see so many give up like that. Once that happens then they start to reconcile other changes to accomodate their new reality. Who am I to say that it is wrong, all I know is that I don't want to go that way!
I guess we should read this one twice as G_Gnome cruised the B-Y in the meadows last summer at age 102.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
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Kevin, I've been both a detractor and a fan over the years, but there's no denying the popularity of your routes. I think that route on the Wart did change a lot of folks perceptions over the years, but I was horrified by a pair of open cold shuts for an anchor at a semi-hanging belay on Cruel Shoes - those dang things flexed anytime anyone moved around. Thanks for providing all that free information on Spring Mountain too, I like that place.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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Sorry about those shuts. That was during a phase when I was poor and they were considered acceptable (by some). They were upgraded long ago. One nice thing about getting older is I'm smarter (at least I think I am), more experienced, and not so poor anymore. Glad you've enjoyed Spring Mtn. - no open shuts up there...
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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Paraphrasing (not direct quotes):
Cragnshag: I've learned more from fatherhood than I have from climbing.
Joe: Like what?
Ian: Focus and perspective are worth climbing but not dying for...
Joe: You mean your climbing should be safe or all climbing should be safe?
Definitely the former. I would like to think that there's enough rock out there for any one of us to be able to seek and subsume ourselves in climbing at our preferred level of risk.
Having said that, I'd be very sad if someone bolted, say, Sloe Children at Index.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 27, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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Shout out to Kevin! Just did Raindance at the City again (had been years) with a couple of newer climbers. Really appreciated it. Great line, but, you've always had an eye for the goods.
Pogue Ethics!
Cheers!
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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PKinwalla is Kevin Pogue??
Your routes rock, thanks.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Sep 27, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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I would hate to see 'Climbing made safe', besides which I just don't see how it is possible given the number of ways people can come up with the screw up even the best practices. The most powerful experiences I have had climbing generally involved getting in over my head. Occassionally these were unintended and I feel lucky to have got thru them all alive, but usually they were approached head on. Without the challenge of the long runout, or the death runout for that matter, I would not have gained what I have from climbing. If you never find your limits how do you know how hard you can push. But then maybe most people never want to find this out.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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Hey there Brian Cabe - and thanks for "outing" me ;-).... Wish I could get myself to the City this fall to see the aspens turn - but it's not looking like that's going to happen. That grove below Rain Dance is usually spectacular.
Some people want to push their limits, and some don't, and some folks' are pushing limits that are lower than others' - there's room for everybody. I remember that someone on this forum (was it Dingus?) once wrote "I climb as hard as anyone on Earth, I just do it on easier routes". I've always thought that neatly summed up why the bolts on 5.7 "sport" routes can (and in my opinion should) be spaced the same (or even closer) as they are on the 5.12's...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 27, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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I've always thought that neatly summed up why the bolts on 5.7 "sport" routes can (and in my opinion should) be spaced the same (or even closer) as they are on the 5.12's...
I grew up steeped on the whole less is best mantra when it came to fixed pro. However, when you decide to bolt a route on rappel, my expectation is that it is well protected whether it be 5.7 or 5.12 so I wholeheartedly agree with you. To me, it does not matter how difficult the route is but it matters whether you start the route ground-up or top down. In my opinion when you start from the top you have an obligation to try and make it safe because the rules are now different. Different rules for different fools.
By the way, I too have enjoyed your routes at Spring Mountain and appreciate you putting the info out there for others. That is a cool little place. And yes, there was one of your routes that I thought "man that thing was overbolted". But I got over it and had fun to boot. (Everyone has an opinion....) Frankly, I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the FA party. Afterall, they were the ones who put the work in. Thanks again.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 27, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
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Many of us stay in shape but we gain wisdom. That does not mean that we give up on risk. Heck I still do the occasional naked free solo and I lead steep ice but I do have a much different opinion of bolts than I did when I was 20yrs stupid.
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