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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
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The coppers did wrong. Try 'em.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Sep 21, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
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I started the original thread. Deleted it because it went too far off topic and went sutpid.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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There's video of the DA's announcement of charges this morning, at
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/murder-manslaughter-excessive-force/
Worth watching for anyone interested in more details of what happened. Sounds like the DA did a thorough job of collecting and examining evidence. I was initially concerned that these cops were going to get away with this, but I'll be very surprised if that occurs.
Also, take a look at the DA's press release: http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Kelly-Thomas-Charges.pdf
A few excerpts:
The evidence reviewed in this investigation includes:
A 30-minute surveillance video taken from a pole camera at the Fullerton Transportation Center (FTC). The camera is remotely controlled by FPD Dispatch and can be moved to focus on various areas of the FTC. The camera pole is located approximately 150 feet northwest of the area where the incident occurred;
Two cell phone videos taken by witnesses;
Six videos of the area and persons around the area of the incident from Orange County Transportation Authority (OCTA) buses;
Video and photographs of the crime scene taken by FPD after the incident;
151 witness interviews. 73 witness interviews were conducted during a canvass of the FTC and surrounding areas by OCDA Investigators during the weeks following the incident. The other 78 included 18 medical personnel such as responding paramedics and hospital staff. Six of the 78 are sworn FPD officers who responded to the scene after the end of indecent, two are civilian FPD employees, 11 are OCTA employees, and the remainder are civilian witnesses;
Police reports from the six involved officers submitted to the OCDA on July 26, 2011;
Audio from the incident from the Digital Audio Recording (DAR) devices of Ramos and Officer Wolfe, Corporal Blatney, and Sergeant Craig (DAR devices of Cicinelli and Officer Hampton were either not activated or not being carried);
Integrated and enhanced video combining surveillance video with DAR overlay from all relevant officers;
DARs from seven other responding officers who arrived after the incident;
Two police batons used in the incident from Ramos and Officer Wolfe;
One Taser and the downloaded information regarding its use from Cicinelli;
Downloaded information from six additional Tasers, which were determined not to have been used;
Medical records from St. Jude Medical Center (St. Jude);
Medical records from University of California, Irvine Medical Center (UCI Medical Center);
Photographs of Thomas from the hospital and autopsy;
Forensic testing including DNA;
Orange County Sheriffs Department (OCSD) Coroners and Toxicology reports with consideration of all materials gathered and submitted by the OCDA;
Dispatch logs and audio from FPD; and
Other evidence.
"Police officers have a right to use reasonable force in the performance of their lawful duties, but citizens have a right to self-defense even against the police if they are not using reasonable force in the performance of a lawful duty."
As Orange County DA Rackauckas states, "this never should have happened".
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mike bodine
climber
bishop, ca
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Sep 22, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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in response
no my job does not allow me to use force against others --
if you read the rest of my comments, I said these idiots have chosen this line of work
they have been trained, they make plenty of money to do the job
sure its dangerous, so is being a school teacher or a plumber or a parent
this is inexcusable and i tremble at the thought that my tax dollars are going to pay these pigs that have committed murder
I also fear for my children's future when I read comments that people believe cops are some kind of hero, some sort of exclusive membership
Im listening to the police scanner now and am in stitches at their stupidity
Im glad they're being prosecuted - I doubt it will stick and the story will fade
kill a cop go to the electric chair, slaughter a bus full of nuns and get 4 years
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Sep 23, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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Unless the jury f*#ks up like they so often do.
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Sep 23, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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T. Rack's press confrence basically made sure that this trial will not be held in the most conservative county in California and will have to be moved to another county. There is no way they can proceed with the trial here in OC with the amount of details he provided.
Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 23, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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Eric,
are you a member of the same force? (We'll keep it on the QT)
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Sep 23, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Piton Ron- No I do not work for Fullerton. I do work for another agency in OC. I have met one of the involved officers a few times but know nothing about him. I will support cops when they deserve it but I will also say fry them when they deserve it. Two officer screwed up big time and will get prosecuted. The majority of cops are hard working good people. This gives all of law enforcement a huge black eye. We are dealing with backlash from this incident.
When I listened to the news conference I was stunned by the officer's actions. No reason or justification for it.
Eric
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Sep 23, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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Yeah, considering such a horrific crime was committed right in front of those other 4 cops, and they failed to act or even report it, they should lose their jobs. Full stop.
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kennyt
climber
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Sep 25, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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poor guy would have had a better chance in a bearsuit on Cragmans deck
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Sep 25, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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cops on crank
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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The Fullerton Police Department, already reeling from criminal charges filed against two officers in the death of a homeless man, has been reprimanded by a federal judge for allowing a police officer to return to patrol after he was accused of groping women.
Seven women have accused Officer Albert Rincon of sexually harassing or groping them during arrests.
In a strongly worded opinion, U.S. District Judge Andrew Guilford refused last week to throw out a lawsuit by two of the women. After the ruling, the city of Fullerton tentatively agreed to settle the case, according to attorneys and court records.
Guilford questioned why the department gave the officer a "weak reprimand" despite accusations from multiple victims that raise "disturbing allegations of police misconduct."
"At the end of the day, the city put Rincon back onto the streets to continue arresting women despite a pattern of sexual harassment allegations. A reasonable juror could conclude based on these facts, that the city simply did not care what officers did to women during arrest," Guilford wrote.
The judge said the city's action "suggests a tacit authorization."
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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The video is out.....
Eric
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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The tip of the iceberg.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Oh man; that is so sick words cannot describe it. On LA radio KFI they have been interviewing his father, a retired cop. It is amazing he can keep his emotions under control.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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I am having technical issues so can't post the video I watched, but it was at www.ocregister.com. I did not watch the 35 minute version but did watch the 8 minute video. I will be the first to admit it was UGLY! But all use of force is ugly. The questions that will be presented to the court and potentially a jury are:
Did the police have a lawful reason to detain Thomas? The answer to that is going to be yes. They had a call for service where the caller names Thomas as being a person who is attempting to break into cars.
Did they have a lawful reason to arrest him? The answer to this will also be yes. They found mail in his backpack that belonged to a lawyer. It was later learned that the mail had been thrown in the trash, but at the time of the incident (very important), they had probable cause to believe he was in possession of stolen property.
Did Thomas follow lawful orders? The answer to this is no he dd not. He was ordered to place his feet in front of him and place his hands on his lap. This places the suspect into a position of disadvantage (officer safety).
Did Thomas actively resist? My opinion is yes he did. He tries to flee, he attempts to pull away, he fails to comply with lawful orders.
Was the force used to overcome the resistance excessive based on the circumstances presented to the officers AT THE TIME of the incident? We're the officers justified in being fearful for their safety?
When TRack gave his press conference he stated Ramos stated " do you see these fists? They are going to F you up!". This quote was taken out of context. It was finished with "if you don't listen". This makes the statement a tactical communication to gain compliance.
During the fight (which is one of the longest police fights I have ever seen) Thomas is yelling he cannot breath. If he could not breath he would not have been able to yell. As more officers arrive you hear one officer say "help us! He is on something!". Pretty telling there. Officer Ciccarelli is later heard saying "I ran out of options". Another pretty telling statement.
I know this opinion will get me flamed here but, based on what I am seeing Thomas was actively resisting during the entire fight. The use of force started with the minimum (presence) and continued up the use of force ladder from there. Verbal commands, hands on, baton strikes (which were to lower extremities), taser (which never had a good dart spread so the muscle disruption didn't occur it ended being more like a drive stun which is pain compliance), to a dog pile (which was trained as a response to the Rodney King incident). I doubt the officers will be bound over for trial.
As for his dad....he was a cop for a very short period of time. He did not care about his son, and had a restraining order against him. He is out for the money.
This is a tragic situation and I am sorry Thomas is dead. Mental illness is horrible and their are no resources available to help them. I think that is where the true tragedy occurred.
Eric
the above opinions are mine and do not represent my agency
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