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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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You Cali haters look up to Texas. But it is facing a 27 billion dollar budget shortfall. It gets 40 percent of its state budget from the feds. Its unemployment rate is 8.4 percent, which compared to the rest of the nations 9 percent is better, but not that great. Plus most of those jobs added are because oil and gas prices have gone up. They have nothing to do with anything the Texas government has done.
Deal with it.
California has a budget problem because our country is in a recession.
Fattrad is a dick..
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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Prop 13 sucks
Why do you guys want grandma to lose her home? ;-)
I'm not a fan of Prop 13 either, but be careful what you wish for.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
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ive done this any number of times. al i ever get back is crickets.
Agree that this is old territory.
But I do appreciate your link to the budget simulator. I tried it before, though and didn't think it was that hard to find a solution. Now maybe the folks that got cut out of my budget didn't agree...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
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I don't want grandma to lose her home. I think prop 13 could be much better written.
It would be easy to protect grandma by tying her property tax to her net worth and her annual income.
Or you could freeze property taxes once a person reaches a certain age.
Not just because they haven't moved.
Or you could have a graduated property tax, plus freeze rates once someone reaches a certain age.
There are lots of different ideas that would protect grandma, and stop protecting large corporations and the wealthy, who never sell their property.
And prop 13 doesn't protect grandma if she has to move because of health reasons. Once she moves, she gets the higher tax rate on the new property. Prop 13 punishes those who need to move for whatever reasons, from health to job.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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"I wish everyone could make $100K+ a year, and retire comfortably at 50. Most folks deserve it, but reality doesn't allow it."
It's always fun to take the worst case scenario and use it as a narrative to justify one's ulterior motive, isn't it?
MP, that might not exactly describe your position, but you can bet yer arse that it is exactly the political strategy of the 'starve the beast' right who would just as soon see government shrink (at the expense of citizens who work within it and support the economy) rather than make any effort to find more equitable strategies (i.e. a tightened, fair tax code) to address the problem.
It should not come as a surprise that there is no trust for the Right as a means to solution. The public might have been a bit more gullible in the early 2000's, but their motives are transparently clear now: the GOP is only friendly to the uber-rich.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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Once the voters learn they can vote themselves bread and circuses, they will.
Right you are! Benjamin Franklin said essentially the same thing a few centuries ago.
Nonetheless, we need to deal with the demographic reality that Mangy sets forth. We've already made too many promises to future retirees that we can't keep, partly because we made too many promises to current and future workers about how little it would cost to support the retirees.
By and large, what John Moosie says about professionals employed by government holds true. Almost any professional, whether engineer, lawyer, nurse, doctor or teacher, could make more in the private sector, but would also work harder, have fewer fringe benefits, and lack job security. i don't see how we can pull the rug out from under those who changed their position (i.e. retired) in reliance on their explicit or implied employment contracts, but I also don't see how we can keep the "contract" in place for current and future workers without making our children and grandchildren into slaves.
Without that fundamental reform, we'll be stuck paying an ever-greater percentage of our incomes to retirees, and have an ever-shrinking fund for current state services, such as education. We already see this in California higher education system. This needs to stop.
The issue of initiatives is a red herring, although I note that the Democrats and their public employee masters have moves afoot to eviscerate initiatives in California, perhaps to avoid true reform. Apres moi, le deluge doesn't strike me as sound public policy.
John
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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It should not come as a surprise that there is no trust for the Right as a means to solution. The public might have been a bit more gullible in the early 2000's, but their motives are transparently clear now: the GOP is only friendly to the uber-rich.
+one million
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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but would also work harder,
Baloney. I know how hard my dad worked.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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Without that fundamental reform, we'll be stuck paying an ever-greater percentage of our incomes to retirees, and have an ever-shrinking fund for current state services, such as education. We already see this in California higher education system. This needs to stop.
The issue of initiatives is a red herring
f*#k. two quick responses: first, pensions may well (i.e., probably will) become a big problem at the state level down the road. but no competent math can make the pension issue the major factor in the current budget problem. nor (as i know you know) is the current depression/recession the underlying cause.
on initiatives as a red herring, i couldn't possibly disagree more. our primary budgetary constraints-- prop 13's amendment of the state constitution, the accelerating and now mandatory investment in the prison system (and thus its labor system including pensions), the disempowerment of local political units, and the requirement that virtually half of each state budget go into k-12 are direct results of voter initiatives.
the amount of money wasted on voter initiatives each election cycle boggles the mind.
plenty of other states have budget problems (illinois and texas prime examples), but no state w/o an initiative system faces our structural constraints or has as few choices. and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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The country is going down because Americans want a free ride.
So many programs like Social Security, Medicare, government jobs, pensions....
Pensions are such a costly blunder that needs to stop.
No one wants to pay for these programs (taxes).
Then there are the tea party ideologists will drive off the cliff rather than lead. Taking the whole country with them.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Two years before prop 13 was voted in L.A. county reassessed my parents house in Altadena (suburb next to Pasadena) and tripled their property tax. No gradual increase, no incremental increase. Just a 300% increase from one to the next. They were devasted. Just imagine your current property tax bill tripling next year and you can see why Prop. 13 had so much momentum back in the 70's.
Prop 13 may be flawed, but some safeguards are in order to prevent county govenments from using property tax increases as a way to bail them out of fiscal irresponsibility.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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The country is going down because Americans want a free ride.
So many programs like Social Security, Medicare, government jobs, pensions....
Last time I checked my pay stub these programs came out of my paycheck. They also came out of my father's paycheck and my grandfather's paycheck. When my children go to work the same programs will come out of theirs. So who's getting the free ride?
The reason that social security is broke is there are not enough workers to support the retirees. Homes with both working parents only having two kids creates diminished returns.
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squishy
Mountain climber
Sac town
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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prop 8 was a fine example of the voter's intelligence...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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Prop 13 kills competition.
You want to start a business, you have to compete with the guy who has owned his building for 30 years. His tax rates could be one tenth of what yours will be. Right off the bat you are behind and he can beat you on price.
Fattrad is a dick..
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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Boy, I'm astounded that so many really believe that direct democracy (i.e. initiatives) is the root cause of California's budget mess. If it is, why have democracy at all?
Yes, Prop 13 is probably the biggest part of the problem, but you leave the history of California government that brought it about out of your equation. Prop 13 happened because government in 1978 had done too many things the people didn't want.
First, the California Supreme Court in Serrano v. Priest declared that financing local schools with local property taxes violated the California Constitution. This led directly to Sacramento getting all the property tax school revenue, and having complete control over its disbursement.
Next, the first Jerry Clown administration had the likes of Adrianna Gianturco in charge of highway spending. Instead of better roads, which we wanted, we got costly pipe dreams. When they installed a diamond lane on the Santa Monica Freeway without adding an extra lane, even left-wing Paul Conrad and the rest of the LA Times editorial page crew howled in protest. The Clown administration ignored them, and everyone else.
Add to that a rip-roaring housing bubble and stagflation, and the public was fed up with government seeming to impose decisions on them. Prop 13 wasn't just an effort to save grandma's house; it was a protest against heavy-handed courts and bureaucrats, and an assertion of the public's fundamental right of self-determination. Had our representative democracy governed properly, it never would have come about.
Yes, as I've asserted frequently, Californians want everything, and we want someone else to pay for it. Until we get not only wonks, but politicians and the media on board, that won't change. Trying to take the people out of the equation won't help at all -- unless you think the fascists and communists were right, and that dictatorship is the truest form of democracy.
John
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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for those poor saps who in recent times saw the book value of their homes plummet? They were the first in line to get reassessed.
To me the problem is basing your tax revenues on property values. It's too consistent from year to year. That and the lack of fore site in politicians to squirrel away funds in time of plenty for when the times get lean.
My household is about to deal with the reality of cutting off programs. My wife works as a community organizer for our school district. The funds that created her job just dried up. We'll be ok because she can still substitute teach but it is the realities of our economy.
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squishy
Mountain climber
Sac town
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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I was laid off three times by the private sector since 2008, never had a benefit to speak of, I now have a state job and your all jelly of it, let me see your tears!! I am set for life and your dumb ass hasn't taken the initiative to apply yet, not my fault, quit whining...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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How come you Kali guys ain't got no wolves in the breadbasket? We prefer relocating them to you toothless welfare chislers in Bumf*#k Egypt, Idaho.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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Josh,
I think property taxes are an appropriate basis for school support, precisely because they don't decline. School needs are relatively stable from year-to-year. Income tax revenues, particularly in a state like California's where the highest income earners pay a disproportionate share of taxes, fluctuate wildly. Just because the stock market is low doesn't change the need for teachers.
John M.,
I have no doubt that your dad worked hard. My aunt, who was like a second mother, also worked for the state. She set up most of the vocational nursing programs in California. When she retired in 1973, three people took her place. I like to think that your dad and my aunt were kindred spirits in that they were true publics servants.
Unfortunately, my general experience with the public sector does not follow their model. In any case, the number of paid holidays, vacation and other fringe benefits remains much higher for public employees.
John
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Fattrad's paid (in $$ or favors) to spam this site -- isn't that obvious by now. Astroturfing, folks. Where's the 'ignore' button, already?
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