Anyone Taking Vitamin T...

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Wayno

Big Wall climber

Seattle, WA

Jun 18, 2011 - 01:47am PT

What about eunuchs? Aren't they people too?

altelis

Mountain climber

Jun 18, 2011 - 09:38am PT

I have no personal experience with it, but some words of caution (not to say this means don't do it, but these things don't always come up in conversation with your doc...)

1) remember, esp given your work background, that just because the levels are low doesn't necessarily mean a) anything is wrong, b) even if there is, simply replacing what's low isn't always the best solution. we pick cut-off's for lab values based on epidemiological work. those cutoff's are chosen based on standard distribution and sensitivity/specificity concerns. there is a whole field essentially dedicated to studying what should be done if a test is "low-normal" or if its "low without symptoms". are you just an outlier from the 2 SD's? are you within the 2 SD's but for your physiology is that abnormal?

if your levels are low, and as pointed out above, the blood was drawn at the right time of day, AND you have symptoms that are really affecting your life AND those symptoms are pretty clearly related to the low T levels and nothing else (physiologically or psychologically- don't rule out a good sit down with a shrink before starting T...) then replacement might be a good idea.

2) just because you have low levels of a marker, esp hormones, doesn't mean the best/safest thing to do is simply replace what's missing. as with what we found out with estrogen and post-menopausal women, we are starting to see that simply replacing T isn't as straightforward and safe as we figured it was. earlier this year, in the a fall, a metaanalysis was published showing increased morbidity and mortality in men taking T replacement therapy. this was, granted, in a very select sub-group. however, like with estrogen 20 odd yrs ago, we are in the process of doing the research to figure out what groups of symptoms outweigh which group of risk factors. our eyes were only just opened to this issue, and so my guess is it'll be another number of years before the data can be gathered (though most of it exists already, so most of the work will be hashing out the stats in retrospective studies).

again, all of this isn't to say YES or NO. you are clearly looking for more info, which is good. i'm in and around an academic medical institution primarily, and so most of the docs i spend most of my time with are pretty up to speed. i also work in some free clinics, and while the docs there are very very up to speed, we get patients coming in with advice that is clearly not reflective of current standard of care. not all physicians keep up with the literature as well as they should. these are just some thoughts reflecting the last couple years worth of advances in thinking about hormone replacement...just some food for thought and potentially some things to bring up with your doc...

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jun 18, 2011 - 10:13am PT

Before all the guys here run out and start testosterone replacement (enhancement) therapy, be advised: be sure to get your PSA test and have your prostate checked by a "finger up the bum" by a competent M.D.

Testosterone is a key accelerator of prostate tumor growth called "prostate cancer." The drug Lupron (Leuprolide) was developed as a form of temporary chemical castration for reducing testosterone production while undergoing other treatments for prostate cancer. I'm all for having a big woody, but not at the expense of having other problems.

monolith

climber

Jun 18, 2011 - 10:22am PT

Yeah, one should make lifestyle improvement factors(diet, hydration, sleep, sun, exercise, stress reduction,B12 and D levels,dumping alcohol,caffeine,...) and give it some time, before considering testosterone shots.

altelis

Mountain climber

Jun 18, 2011 - 10:26am PT

its interesting. its actually DHT, a conversion product of testosterone, that's really responsible for increased prostate size in BPH, and seems to be partly responsible for prostate cancer.

however, LOW levels of testosterone seem to be indicated as being at least a partial risk factor for prostate cancer. studies have been mixed, but it seems that T replacement doesn't increase your risk from your own personal baseline risk for prostate cancer. though, more research is certainly needed...

Wayno

Big Wall climber

Seattle, WA

Jun 18, 2011 - 03:21pm PT

That's a gem, Jim.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jun 18, 2011 - 04:21pm PT

altelis-

Lupron is probably the #1 drug used in treatment of prostate cancer. It's technically a "superagonist" that temporarily causes a monsterous increase in testosterone production which the pituitary then senses; the extreme high level triggers another hormonal response and shuts down testosterone production. When Lupron is discontinued, normal teticular function returns.

Lupron is the drug's trade name, and generically known as leuprolide. There are at least 4 U.S. manufacturers of the drug.

altelis

Mountain climber

Jun 18, 2011 - 04:44pm PT

I understand how leuprolide works, and that it's primary use is prostate cancer. Endocrinology, time and time again, proves to be a field that requires a firm grasp of the logical promoter and feedback pathways, a field in which tweaking those pathways in logical and intuitive ways provides treatment for disease, and a field in which tweaking those pathways in logical and intuitive ways fails to provide the outcomes that, logically, everybody expected.

That's what's so interesting about testosterone levels and prostate cancer. Leuprolide is an effective drug against prostate cancer- by using tonic high levels of hypothalamic stimulation, the HPG axis essentially shuts down, lowering testosterone levels. Logic suggested this would be appropriate treatment, and clinical use has supported that. However, contrary to logical supposition but supported by research, is that it also seems that men with low testosterone levels (not due to pharmacology) have an increased risk of prostate cancer. And, contrary to logical supposition but somewhat supported by research, TRT doesn't increase prostate cancer risks as much/to the extent that one would think.

That's all I was trying to say...am I missing something you are trying to say?

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jun 18, 2011 - 06:36pm PT

All I'm saying is that testosterone replacement therapy ISN'T FOR EVERYBODY! Just be sure no other underlying problems exist.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 18, 2011 - 07:15pm PT

Isn't this what DHEA pills are for or do they not really function to raise T levels?

altelis

Mountain climber

Jun 18, 2011 - 09:41pm PT

roger that.

bmacd

Social climber

100% Canadian

Jun 18, 2011 - 10:13pm PT

Build up your testosterone level by hitting the gym hard. Supplement with BCAA's. Dead lift your body weight or greater. The heavy lifts radically increase testosterone production, had me growling, panting and snarling like a wild animal afterwards.

Don't skimp on the pornos and make sure you masturbate regularly in between meals

Protein intake should be HIGH for guys over 50

But seriously its the heavy lifts that generate the T drug naturally, dangling by your fingernails on Cerro Torre or the Salathe headwall isn't enough ….

See you in Vancouver at the next Riot Bro !!

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A community of hairless apes

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2011 - 10:31pm PT

For sake of completeness, here's a quick followup.

A few months back I started up with Vit T shots. To date, my experience has been positive. Besides climbing, I am a long-time rather serious participant in two other sports, running and weight lifting to keep fit that are readily quantifiable and so it's been rather easy to keep track quantitatively of performance results. Since starting up with the Vit T, I've set several PRs running new trails (three-year old trails) in the mountains. Also I feel pretty strongly that the extra pep I've felt is more than psychological, i.e., more than due to any placebo.

I'll spill a little here for sake of science and anecdotal relevance: Sad to say a few years back I suffered a divorce. (Soap opera-style, the whole works. Of course a gorgeous woman (mine) and a well-heeled outside party were involved. Drama I had never imagined, life turned upside down, shock to the whole system.) Making matters worse, this was also on the heels of raising a family - three children who are now young adults. Consider this in light of recent news reports of lower testosterone in family men.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1608209/Have-Kids-Lose-Balls

So today I have a high level of confidence that these recent personal experiences I had in family and everything they brought with them in the aftermath (including courts and lawyers) – not to mention my present work which isn't exactly glamorous (so far) like winning a "trial of the century" or whatever - short-circuited the testosterone. If you've studied courting mating rituals in many and various animal ecologies (or perhaps watched Animal Planet) you might know when one male loses a bout of some kind (what comes to mind right now is the battle between two male rattle snakes vying for copulating rights with a female and how upon losing the vanquished slithers off) the testosterone of the losing male drops according to animal ecology endocrinology research. For how long and in what measure I don't know, but it's a metaphor for a possible "mechanism of action" I've used in my own thinking so I thought I'd mention it. ;)

My dosage has been .5cc/ per two weeks (at 200mg/ ml). Testosterone levels have been re-normalized now. Back in June it was 234, now 420. Since I feel like a new man performance wise in my personal sports activities, I'd encourage any of you who might not be feeling your best to get your T levels checked. As I said earlier in the thread, I hadn't expected my testosterone might be low as I had no concerns in either the sex area or the athletics area. (I was actually visiting my doc for my first ever prostatitis, age 51, when the subject of Vitamin T came up and we decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to get it checked.)

FYI: Effective 17 Oct 2011, testosterone serum reference level for adult male will be changing in the U.S. to 348 -1197. It used to be 193-740.

Perhaps TMI? If so, sorry. Just wanted to followup. First a colonoscopy report with pictures. Now this. Wonder what's next. :)

From another thread,

Ain't aging a trip?

Twisted Crank

WBraun

climber

Oct 10, 2011 - 10:41pm PT

"To the gross materialist who cannot see anything beyond the gross material body, there is nothing beyond the senses.

Therefore his occupational activities are limited to concentrated and extended selfishness.

Concentrated selfishness centers on the personal body—this is generally seen amongst the lower animals. Extended selfishness is manifested in human society and centers on the family, society, community, nation, and world with a view to gross bodily comfort.

Above these gross materialists are the mental speculators, who hover aloft in the mental spheres, and their occupational duties involve making poetry and philosophy or propagating some ism with the same aim of selfishness limited to the body and the mind.

But above the body and mind is the dormant spirit soul, whose absence from the body makes the whole range of bodily and mental selfishness completely null and void.

But less intelligent people have no information of the needs of the spirit soul."

Crimpergirl

Sport climber

Boulder, Colorado!

Oct 10, 2011 - 10:44pm PT

HFCS: sounds like a rough patch you've traveled lately. I am seriously happy that things are looking up. (That is not a woody joke).

However, when you do need an extra lift-me-up, just think back to the wise words of Brokedownclimber:

I'm all for having a big woody

Still makes me laugh! :)

monolith

climber

berzerkly

Oct 10, 2011 - 10:44pm PT

Dang, I was just going to say the reference levels were going up. I just had another test and it was 760, and said I was over range. But then I noted the same note that said reference levels were going up.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Oct 10, 2011 - 10:54pm PT

Gotta' eat lots of RED MEAT! Seriously, the declining levels of CoQ10, , and L-Carnitine have an effect on testosterone production. These are both found in RED MEAT. I second the heavy lifting, too.

monolith

climber

berzerkly

Oct 10, 2011 - 10:57pm PT

Really, you've got to eat meat? Not surprising coming from a former cattle rancher. I've been vegetarian all my life, and I'm 54 now with a very high T level.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Oct 10, 2011 - 11:06pm PT

Nothing "former" about it. I'm 72 and still "at it." I had a 3/4 pound ranch raised beef Salisbury Steak tonight, washed down with a Negra Modelo. My sop to vegetarianism: I had a big twist of lime in the Modelo.