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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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Bluering does not believe the President was born in Hawaii, in the United States.
Bluering is a "birther".
He is a man who has strong opinions, and has no problem stating them clearly.
Some people consider those to be positive attributes in a man.
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Clippy Thing
Trad climber
Texass
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Bluering, I'm a little confused. Did you get stoned and think people were controlling your mind? You're confused that's called paranoia.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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Bluey, lets all take in a Giants Game this Spring, drink some Beer, Smoke some Dope and talk shizzz. . .d
edit, you down for a day at the BallPark Ed?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
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most sellers of the illicit intoxicant, what ever it is, are usually against legalization because it reduces the price they can get, and the monopolies that are built in the illegal trade....
In the case of opium to China, it was something that the British and Americans did, supply opium illegally to China, and then went to war over it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
This is very unlike the issue with Cannabis...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(drug);
from the Wiki page: The UN estimated that in 2004 about 4% of the world's adult population (162 million people) use cannabis annually, and about 0.6% (22.5 million) use it on a daily basis.[9]
[9]http://www.unodc.org/pdf/WDR_2006/wdr2006_chap2_biggest_market.pdf
from that report:
In financial terms, there can be little doubt that North America constitutes the world’s largest cannabis market. With high prices and a large user base, the North American market alone has been valued at US$10 billion to 60 billion, depending on the underlying production estimates. Most of this demand is satisfied by North American production.(1) It is also one of the best understood markets, due the attention paid to the issue by the United States government in particular. Estimates made available to UNODC suggest that North America accounts for about one third of global production, or 14,000 metric tons.
This is a huge business, from the Wiki:
In the United States, cannabis is overall the #4 value crop, and is #1 or #2 in many states including California, New York and Florida, averaging $3,000/lb.[127][128] It is believed to generate an estimated $36 billion market.[129] Most of the money is spent not on growing and producing but on smuggling the supply to buyers. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime claims in its 2008 World Drug Report that typical U.S. retail prices are $10–15 per gram (approximately $150–250 per ounce). Street prices in North America are known to range from about $150 to $250 per ounce, depending on quality.[130]
So we learn that North America supplies it's own pot for consumption, and that the price is set by the smuggling the supply. Why would a smuggler want it legalized?
As far as being a "gateway drug", we find in that same article: Studies have shown that tobacco smoking is a better predictor of concurrent illicit hard drug use than smoking cannabis.[115]
[115] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1746-1561.1993.tb06150.x/abstract;jsessionid=0C1BE98210E584F5447F0931ADFEBD8C.d03t03"]
Cigarette Smoking as a Predictor of Alcohol and Other Drug Use by Children and Adolescents: Evidence of the “Gateway Drug Effect”
ABSTRACT: Data from a statewide survey, conducted by the Indiana Prevention Resource Center, of 20,629 Indiana students in grades 5–12 were analyzed to determine the extent to which cigarette smoking predicted use of alcohol and other drugs and acted as a so-called “gateway drug.” A three-stage purposive/quota cluster sampling strategy yielded a representative sample of Indiana students, stratified by grade. Cross-tabulated data revealed a strong, dose-dependent relationship between smoking behavior and binge drinking, as well as use of alcohol and illicit drugs. Daily pack-a-day smokers were three times more likely to drink alcohol, seven times more likely to use smokeless tobacco, and 10–30 times more likely to use illicit drugs than nonsmokers. A stepwise multiple regression analyzed the role that the student's perceptions of the risk of using drugs and of peer approval/disapproval of the student's drug use, gender, grade in school, and ethnic background played in predicting alcohol and other drug use.
The number of people in prison due to drugs, and on the "three strikes" laws has greatly increased since 1980.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges. [32][33]
The 2009 budget of the State of California had $8.2B for "Corrections and Rehabilitiation" reducing the prison population by 20% would presumably save $1.6B dollars from the State budget... in just the reduced prison population.
CA NORML estimates the increased revenue to California on legalizing Marijuana to be $1.5 to $2.5B per year....
http://www.canorml.org/background/CA_legalization.html
So that's a potential help to the Cali budget of nearly $5B per year... or 20% of the budget short fall...
How is legalization being foisted upon us as some sort of conspiracy?
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Clippy Thing
Trad climber
Texass
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
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How is legalization being foisted upon us as some sort of conspiracy?
Because Cockring says so.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
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A history of how substance use affects and is affected by cultural movements would be more interesting than attempting to demonize a thing without being more inclusive. One of the only meaningful lessons from history is that information, by its presence or absence, is used to manipulate people.
Hell, religion being the opiate of the masses was originally a positive statement.
Good luck with your agenda, but leave "history" out of it.
This is interesting and I need to break it down. And then get to Ed 'the Head' Hartouni. I just came up with that Ed. It's a compliment.
This here;
A history of how substance use affects and is affected by cultural movements would be more interesting than attempting to demonize a thing without being more inclusive.
The beginning of that agrees with me and then says That I'm "demonizing without being more inclusive"???
I was deliberately making a comparison between 2 passive intoxicants. Opium and pot.
I left out Meth, Alcohol, and coke on purpose. They aren't passive.
And this:
One of the only meaningful lessons from history is that information, by its presence or absence, is used to manipulate people.
That is typical crap. So all info is bad. They imply it's always used to manipulate people. What utter bullshit!
Most of it is bullsh#t, but c'mon!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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Ed;
most sellers of the illicit intoxicant, what ever it is, are usually against legalization because it reduces the price they can get, and the monopolies that are built in the illegal trade....
You miss my point. They aren't in it for money. The want pacifism. Sure the dealers that do the bidding are only in it for the cash. But I'm talking higher up. Klimmer style.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
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Bullwinkle. A day on the rocks would be cooler. Especially with some other locals, like Ed 'The Head' Hartouni and others.
Where do you live again? City?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
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good or bad... I haven't done anything for over 35 years... in the last decade and a half my employer has requested that I refrain as a condition of employment, and I have honored that request...
You have a strange view of this if you think only "heads" would push for legalization, in my case I think of it from a rational point of view... it doesn't make any sense to make drug use criminal.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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IN all the years of non-sensical blather that he has tainted the board with...
He finally has a (at least on the face of it) well thought question about something that may be relevant...
Problem with the premise is two fold at first thought:
1. What about all those that do not partake of the herb? They will not be swayed so easily, and those people can be trusted to have our backs, can't they?
2. Herb has been one thing in the minds of the masses (one of the main reasons it is kept on the top of the list of scheduled drugs,) and that is: Its mind expanding properties. Once a person smokes, they hear music different, they see themselves different, and they view the world around them different. This is of course a short-lived effect, but the experience is an eye-opener to say the least. (And, as stated before, you really wouldn't want an American population standing up and figuring out how badly they are getting f*#ked by the upper 1% and start banding together and causing all kinds of laws getting changed, and right being requested and expected to be respected.
So, while the idea of the individual "stoner" type fitting your stereotyped "lulled to sleep, and not giving a sh#t to notice when they are having their rights striped away", this is really doesn't make much sense past the high-schooler smoking out of big brothers bong after school years...
BTW - Didn't you vote for the guys that striped a few constitutional rights away from American citizen's when they past "The Patriot Act"? And weren't you leading the cheering from the tacos stand bleachers yelling out "Get them al-kiada's, get Osama" and claiming "the troops can do no wrong", "Proud supporter of the American Troops"....?
Just saying...
Thanks Ed Edit:
"You have a strange view of this if you think only "heads" would push for legalization, in my case I think of it from a rational point of view... it doesn't make any sense to make drug use criminal."
 IT would seem that blue-head is just not thinking clearly, either that or the fingers ain't typing out the words in the order he wants them to, so, we all may be getting a completely different story than the one he's got in his head.
Like Ed stated, there are many reasons why legal weed would be a good idea, Ed stated one, purely economic/budget resolving reason. My second would be that I no longer want to pay privately run prisons to house the mostly weed smoking prisoners, and I no longer want my taxes being spent on an out of control police force "just doing their jobs" when they kick in the doors of the homes of the innocent and end up killing a child, a parent, or just a plain old ordinary human being, regardless of their cultural, social, or racial standings in society.
Don't mind cops sending a few drunk drivers to jail.
I don't mind cops sending a few money laundering bankers to jail.
I don't mind cops sending a bunch of republicans to jail for child molestation., Oh, wait not them, I meant priests. No, wait.. it was republicans, those filthy scumbags.
I mind that my tax dollers are going to fight a never-ending war against a fantasy evil... a f*#king plant.... a f*#king plant that's; been on this plant longer than man.... longer than this civilization, with all its out dated rules and laws. Reminds me of the uselessness of lighting the virgins on fire to please the gods of ancient Mayan cultures... Totally pointless, because there was and is no god.
Much like this war on drugs, there is no evil.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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Ed, when I refer to you as Ed 'the Head', I mean smarts-wise. Not pothead wise. That's the other 'head'.
You make a good point point below, about "rational arguments", but they are disputable. And we can argue that too!
As for making drug use illegal? That is a different topic. I refer to gov't encouragement of drug use. The relaxing of laws for THE WRONG REASONS.
You have a strange view of this if you think only "heads" would push for legalization, in my case I think of it from a rational point of view... it doesn't make any sense to make drug use criminal.
EDIT:
Some of you should re-read my OP. I knew people would think I'm anti-drug or anti-pot.
That is not the point!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
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4. If you look at statistics; Alcohol is the Drug that needs to be outlawed as it does make people dumb, violent and non productive. . . "...
Not true. But some heads are super-productive too.
Not the point.
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Clippy Thing
Trad climber
Texass
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Bluering, if you think they're relaxing pot laws, come to Texas and then post what you've learned.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2011 - 11:55pm PT
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Oh no, Clippy's gettin' hounded by the man!!!!
How 'harsh' are Texas laws???
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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^^^ well, now, I think that is only a given if you live in a mobile home.
I don't think Dylan Thomas was any of those.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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I will argue that with you, Locker. 1 or 2 beers does not make a person dumb. Almost no impairment.
2 hits of pot and you are baked nowadays.
To say alcohol is worse is wrong. It's much more regulated (alcohol%) and containable. I will agree though that driving really stoned is safer than driving after a few beers.
We have dodged my point again.
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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The active/passive distinction needs some work. Stereotypes aren't all they're cracked up to be.
I was mostly making fun of your attempt to put your post in an historical context.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2011 - 12:09am PT
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I was mostly making fun of your attempt to put your post in an historical context.
Okay. Make fun of me. How is it not of an historical parallel? I think it's a damn fine comparison. Tell me why it isn't.
EDIT:
EDITED:
Bullwinkles post is a wee bit exagerated of course...
But his point is obvious and clear...
Musta been a fly-by...Whaaa???
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Clippy Thing
Trad climber
Texass
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:11am PT
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Clippy's not getting hounded by the man, Clippy knows better.
 tolerance in Texas. I rent 2 of my houses to Border Patrol agents they fill me in on all the ins and outs. It's not weed friendly here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2011 - 12:13am PT
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Am I supposed to like him because he is Republican?? Never heard of him.
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