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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Passing is always problematic but being old school a bit, I always give the party ahead the benefit of the doubt. First come, first served being the basic principle.
Nonetheless, passing in many cases can be successfully arranged with considerate conversation. My buddy marvels at my appetite for the crowded classics around Boulder but I have passed and been politely passed on the Bastille Crack, Rewritten and several of the Flatiron classics.
Caught behind dix!, I consider rapping and/or heading to another route. YMMV
gilroy
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I agree with Dana. (Hi, Dana.) Crawling over a party who got there first, unless they agree to let you by, is super rude and totally self-centered. You don't own the climb just because you happen to be faster than the folks ahead of you. And fer chrissake, there's a bazillion routes in Black Velvet Canyon, it isn't as if the faster folks had no options!
So let's not be too quick to heap all the blame on the party that got passed here. We don't know what words were spoken between the parties, but we can be certain, given the subsequent events, that the slower party did not want the faster party to climb past them. Either the faster party didn't ask whether it was ok to pass, or they asked, were turned down, and then went ahead with it anyway.
Either way, I have some sympathy for the guys who tied them off, although I think a respect for the safety of others, even others who are total as#@&%es, should enable you to control yourself enough not to put someone else at risk.
I also think that, in general, the polite thing to do when an express-train party comes roaring up behind you is to offer to let them pass, unless there is some reason to fear that they will be raining rocks down on your head.
I actually had an experience exactly like that on Frogland a few years ago. We were first, these Brits came flying up behind us, we offered to let them pass, they declined, saying "No, it's all about the day mate!" and we happily chatted at belay ledges and the top for the rest of the route.
Common decency goes a long way. Too bad some folks are in short supply.
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orsemaj
Gym climber
SD
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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I've been passed plenty of times and I have also let parties pass (sometimes I wish I have not...). I'd assume that the passing party did not ask to pass or was denied and passed anyway. If this is the case (given lots of considerations like being on the first or second pitch and all of the loose rock on the route), I think it is understandable that the passed party tied them off. I see no safety issue, the leader could have rapped down and cleaned the problem. Lots of details missing: did the leader trundle anything on his way up. If someone is on the route first, that is life; go climb something harder if you are such a GOD.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I don't see any problem with being passed, or passing slower parties.
It always seems to be the case that the slower party is the well less experienced, and the passing party is more experienced.
Hence the immature actions/comments by the slower parties that do get passed.
I've gladly let folks cruise by me when it was obvious they were a faster moving team.
It's pretty damn rude not to and to take the immature attitude of "well we got here first so the whole damn mountain is ours"
go fuk yourselves....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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I'm with the crowd who says they should not have passed in the first place without permission, although the response was definitely out of line. I'm not the greatest climber, but I am fast. Still, I will generally not even ask to pass another party out of respect for their right to be there. My main climbing partner (he's French - not there there's anything wrong with that) does not see eye-to-eye with me on this and he has has totally embarrassed me on this issue at least twice.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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I do feel a need to make one thing clear - my response and the initial post to this issue was from a personal ethical standpoint. I would never pass without permission, and I personalized the responding tie-off as if there were permission, and then the slower leader "changed his mind".
Apologies for not making that clear from the outset.
Regardless, I think the discussion is an important one.
Erik
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Great tale HariHari! These situations have been going on for decades certainly. Clusterf**ks. Undoubtedly way more often now of course. Best to try to find some humor in it. But obviously peril increases like crazy with people stacking up like this on lead and belay. I won’t go on a route with anybody already on it nearby, period. Once climbing though, if someone is solo unroping, I sure will let him or her through, instantly. And when I have solo unroped people have always let me by generally. I am not sure I have ever been overtaken by another roped party but if they are that fast, I would try and let them through if it will work. Regardless, everybody has to talk beforehand or else it will get effing ugly as all get out. And may continue for years afterwards. Obviously then there is an increase of a chance of rockfall or a falling climber--- one has to consider this but the fact is that there more climbers there than planned and everybody has to cope with it.
I haven’t been in too many scenes like these above but there is a great one I like to relate regularly. Back in 1971 early March, Vandiver and I were unroping together up the Column Direct and then North Dome South Face. After about 15 pitches and I guess two pitches from the top of North Dome and the end of our linkup while later in the afternoon, Chris and I run into Al Steck, Dick Long and Jim? Wilson. They are planted for the duration, stuck at their belay below the crux 5.7 lieback way up high. Dick Long I guess or Wilson has gotten a boot---and I do mean “boot”, like a Monte Rosa or something huge, leathery and floppy---- stuck in the beginning of the pitch up about 20 feet or something from the belayer. As it was 1971, they all had hammers and while the leader was hanging eventually from an actual pin or nut, he was desperately whacking the boot with the hammer trying to get it out. Al Steck ( who I have known for 47 years) was giving us his Al Steck face and actually blocking us to be sure. But we asked him twice anyway for to climb through--- for christ’s sake we were hanging out there unroped 800 feet above the ground on the crappy shifty bitty little bushes dribbling down from their belay area. We weren’t in any real position to tolerate their situation and obviously we were simply flying, as Werner says above, “like the wind”. No No No was the answer. So by the time all these older guys finally trundled up to the summit and we were still hot on their asses, night had begun, forcing us to bivy in turtlenecks and cotton pants out in the damned forest with a constantly dying fire all night in near freezing temperature--- in early March you see. Apparently later on Al felt he should have let us climb through. He stated this to Inez, my old buddy who was close to him also. But Al never said anything to me. I love Al Steck but there is always that memory you see of how Chris and I were handled, unroped, up high after 16 pitches while his party really fooled around for 45 crucial minutes late in the day, causing us a tremendous amount of trouble later on. I suspect Al had never been overtaken by unroped parties before and probably had to think about it quite a bit afterwards as most would have too. It is weird being way the hell and gone up something all equipment and trudging along per the system of lead and belay and then have climbers appearing out of nowhere without any gear at all going about 1000 feet per hour.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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I find that if you are fast, friendly and polite, they Always invite you to pass.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Very often on crowded routes, someone two or three parties ahead is forcing a slower pace on all that follow. The slow party that you are trying to pass might be more polite than slow, and passing them isn't necessarily going to speed anything up for anyone. It's like changing lanes in a traffic jam...You don't get anywhere any faster, you just piss everyone around you off and make the commute needlessly stressful for everyone.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Then you are clearly very inexperienced if this is how you see it. There's a lot more to consider than just the question of which party is faster. A LOT more.
Right, off you go.
I don't see any problem with being passed, or passing slower parties.
It always seems to be the case that the slower party is the well less experienced, and the passing party is more experienced.
Hence the immature actions/comments by the slower parties that do get passed.
I've gladly let folks cruise by me when it was obvious they were a faster moving team.
It's pretty damn rude not to and to take the immature attitude of "well we got here first so the whole damn mountain is ours"
go fuk yourselves....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Looking at it another way, perhaps the second team thought that because the route is named Frogland, playing leapfrog would be a good idea?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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I think being polite will go a long way for both parties. The idiocy on the routes takes a back seat to the stupidity in the casinos!
Last time I was calling my son and bothering him in college everyday for the rundown of the basketball games. I'd say, looking at the sheet full of scores and the days scheduled games: "OK, Denver is playing at Houston and is favored by 3."
He'd reply something like: Well, Alan Iverson's playing good, Denver will beat the spread."
Me: "Iverson is playing for Denver now?" When did he go there? What happened to Philly?"
"Dad PLEEAASSSE! ! Whatta, do you live in a cave or sumptin'? Iverson got traded 3 years ago! Besides, Iverson's hitting that 20' step back jumper and he's getting strong crossovers and a half step on even the new guys since his calf muscle healed! He'll probably get 20 points on drives alone, Denver for sure."
Me: "Oh" (making frantic notes). "Uhh, Ok, what do you think on the over-under if I said 212?"
Lad: "Over."..... Denvers also got Carmello Anthony dad, and Houston's healthy and will be takin it down court on the fly, over for sure".
long pause.....
OK, "How about the Lakers and Sonics?"
And that's how that went. Lad was 32 wins, 18 losses. Some of the loses were when his team pick had their opponents drop a bucket in the last second to beat the spread.
I was up on Blackjack too, but I bet low stakes and mostly just visited with folks: hanging with my brother at a blackjack table can run towards being a 3 ring circus where everyone is involved. Brother says to the card dealer: "How do you get comped for breakfast here"?
Dealer " Oh that's Jacks call, he's the pit boss".
Bro: "Oh, thanks - could you call Jack over here?"
Jack gets to the table. Bro then starts what will prove to be a relentless running series of side negotiations with Jack for the next mornings breakfast as the cards continue to fly and the friendly Midwest couple at the table stare amazed at this display of unbridled Chutzpah unlike anything they've ever seen or perhaps ever will see.
"Jack", says bro, waving his hands to show he's including everyone at the table "this table wants breakfast comped tomorrow".
Jack: "I'm sorry, but complimentary breakfasts are for registered guests or players club members only blah blah blah".
"Jack, please": starts in bro with his opening salvo of what will prove to be more than Jack ever has to deal with: "Millie and Don there came all the way from Topeka to be here," pauses for effect and gestures to the beaming couple, who appear enchanted to be involved in the discussion "and we've been sitting here having a great time giving your boss's money and supporting your casino so you can get a big paycheck and don't you think it's only fair that you give us a little something in return?"
10 min of this dialog and Jack leaves. No breakfast....yet.
5-10 min later...the card game continuing... Bro notices Jack on the other side of the pit again and within a few seconds has the whole table chanting and clapping in unison like the frikkan world series game is on the line "JACK JACK JACK JACK JACK. With at least 1/2 the casino looking at us, stopped dead in mid-card deal to watch this unusual interruption, Jack comes over to the table which is now at fever pitched laughter at having won this little drama and gotten Jacks attention, and Jack is torn because they don't like this raucous behavior in casinos, but this group is still playing, laughing and joking: obviously having a great time and to Jack they look prepared to give up their kids college funds and the title to their homes once the bank account gets depleted if it continues, so Jack tries to be cool and with a wry smile quietly and almost shyly asks everyone to keep it down a bit by saying "shhhh, guys, keep it down a little will ya, you don't want me to lose my job now do you"?
Everyone gets quiet and then Bro starts in again: "Come on Jack, how much is breakfast really going to cost you guys?". You're buying the eggs wholesale, at a nickel and egg, why thats gonna cost you only" ..pause to do the math...."40 cents..thats if everyone here even has 2 eggs tomorrow morning.....blah blah etc etc", "why hell Jack, I'd think you'd want us wandering back in tomorrow for breakfast so we'd drop all our sports book money here...etc etc."
This little drama plays out for about an hour until finally Jack relents and gives everyone at the table a complimentary breakfast, thus saving everyone the $2.99 they would have had to pay otherwise. We give our leave to Don and Millie, and everyone walks out with the breakfast coupons and are feeling like Ed McMahon just told them they'd won the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes.
On the way over to breakfast, coupon in hand and still high from that winning feeling, Bro says: "What do you think about heading over to look at the new Bentleys in the Wynn?"
When we get there, they want $10 to just walk in the door. People are paying it too. Bro has never paid to look at a car in his life and won't start now so he will have none of that of course...it's game on again! Culminating with bro getting us in the dealership and trying to suck a complimentary lunch out of them as well.
And so it goes.
My brother, he's so damn much fun. This kind of thing happens on and off the whole time he's there. Never a dull moment.
fortunately, he's not a climber, but he'll pass you on the freeway all day long in his Bentley.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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people are stupid, have no courtesy and no patience.. if you are first on the route you are first plain and simple. some tries to pass me, they will have issues..
plain and simple,,
if you are second in line, go find another route..
plain and simple..
The Kid nailed it.
Both parties were wrong but the passing group was at fault in my book.
Prod.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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Not me .... If I'm on a route and Donini comes roaring up behind me I will yield and let him pass. I know my place in line .....
Common decency goes a long way
You guys are just old.
Heh.
This is the Age of Entitlement.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 18, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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"...grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch"
He probably told all his smelly friends he freed it.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Yep. Game, set, match.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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yeah, passing is fine in many situations but not neccessarily on a crowded moderate route in Red Rocks such as Frogland. Moderate multipitch climbs by their nature and grade generally project the speed and type of climbers that will be on them. Climbers going out with the intent to run up and over mutiple teams is arrogant, egotistic, and creating a hazard. Frogland is 5.8, not the domain of the hardman.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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There's also an etiquette to dealing with getting passed.
One morning, "Scott" and I raced up to the base of Grand Wall. A local, let's call him "Perry," has snaked us. He and his friend work methodically up the first pitch. Scott and i fly up it, almost on their heels, doing the teenage boy thing.
"Perry" watches and measures our pace and style. At the 2nd belay, I can hear him tell his partner, "looks like rain, let's rap."
They rap, and Scott and I tear off, up our big climb.
Good lessons for us young 'uns. ( we were probably 5 yrs younger than Perry.)
He let us pass, but only after he saw how we were climbing. He did it in a way that didn't make his partner feel like she was climbing badly or that it was her fault they were rapping. He let us make the pass without a confrontation or even letting us know he was doing us a favor or offering gratuitous advice about pro or conditions or whatever.
One of those lessons you absorb without realizing that it had been a teaching moment.
Or course, pitch or two later, it really did rain, and Scott and I had to rap.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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So Eric, get on the phone. Let's get the real story from the party who did the passing.
Maybe they did indeed blow it and not ask permission, or worse, just blew on by of their own volition.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Oct 18, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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Dudes, if yer slow yer slow. Get over it. Let them pass! By the way I have no reason to be posting on this thread as I have very little multi-pitch experience........But this is akin to driving 25 in the fast lane and not moving over. Get moving or get the f*#k out of the way I say.
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