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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Cool Steve, it sounds like we are all on the same page - let's figure out what should go and what should stay. Obviously if there are 5-bolt anchors (like the top of pitch 8) they should at a minimum be reduced to 2 good bolts!
So it sounds like maybe the first or both bolts on pitch 1 aren't really needed with aliens? Do others agree with that?
Remove the anchor midway pitch 7.
That leaves around 10 more bolts to figure out whether to chop or replace...input from people?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This route truly deserves the consideration based on the stellar effort by RR and TM! An El Cap Grade VI with one bolt!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If you placed all your own belay anchors, could you reasonably climb the route using only the one original belay bolt?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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yes.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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You people are wrong. The original single bolt on the route was a bolt placed after the arch near the top of pitch two. It was used for upward progress. I hooked by it and avoided it on the fifth ascent August of 1971. We need to get the AAJ article up here for this. The ledge at the end of pitch 7 was anchorless, surprisingly.... and not a great situation after a full rope length I remember. It needed a bolt and of course it got one or two eventually.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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Peter- Roper's green guide is my source for locating that single bolt. How many bolts do you recall in total when you did it?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 10, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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I was just reading this in the can the other day... just happened to run across it.
From the 1968 AAJ, page 73
**The West Face - El Capitan
Royal Robbins**
The West face is the plain Jane sister of the Salathe Wall of El Capitan. It would be more distinguished were it not adjacent to one of the most sweeping and magnificent rock walls in the world, flanked as that wall is by the pure and noble lines of the west and south buttresses. It's true that the other sister of the Salathe, the North America Wall, is no charmer, but it at least faces the onlooker frontily and sternly and inspires the sort of fearful awe one would feel facing the medusa. Not so the west face, which is tucked in a corner almost out of sight, except from such distant viewpoints as the Wawona Tunnel overlook. Unfortunately, from these positions the aquiline form of the west buttress is invisible, so the west face and Salathe Wall appear as one unbroken precipice, to the esthetic detriment of both.
Notwithstanding the above, the west face is nearly 2000 feet high, and composed of some of the finest rock in Yosemite. Besides which, when TM Herbert and I approached in early June, 1967, it was still virgin; and virgin walls are becoming as rare in Yosemite as condors in California: there are a few left, but you have to look hard to find them.
Herbert and I walked along with little of the fear and anxiety that are normal passengers of the mind when nearing a big wall. We had both already met the challenges of greater walls than the west face; and with 30 expansion bolts, we were confident we would succeed, or at least certain we could escape safely if we failed. Our attitudes had changed much since a dozen years earlier, when, scrambling toward the Lost Arrow Chimney with my friend Joe Fitschen, I was almost dizzy with fear contemplating that horrendous gash topped by the unreal pinnacle of the Lost Arrow Spire.
But we approached the west face with a self-assurance born of years of experience in just the sort of climbing we expected to meet. Thus deprived of any significant element of the unknown, our venture promised little of grand alpinisms, but it would surely be a first-rate rock climb, and so it proved.
We passed the great pillar of the west buttress and peered upward through leathery evergreen foliage of canyon live oaks. There was the west face, first white and then reddish brown as it curved upward slowly out of sight. The wall has a curiously plated appearance and lacks deep continuous fractures. However, there are many shallow discontinuous ones, which, if we could somehow connect, would give us a good route with few bolts. But could we tie them together?
We began at a large block which sits between two cliffs in the El Capitan Couloir. Our first goal was a great arch separating the lower white granite, more normal of Yosemite, from the upper, unusual, rusty-hued rock of peculiar construction. The first pitch, one of the hardest we would face, was a problem in aid climbing. A skyhook placed with a two-foot length of stiff wire was the key. But it did not exactly open the door, for the pitch was hard all the way.
Herbert came up the fixed line with Jumars (odd how it is natural for TM's friends to call him "Herbert"—for short as it were—instead of his first name, the letters "TM"). He removed the hardware as he came, while I hauled our 50-pound sack. Above, a 45-foot piton crack arched upward behind a thin exfoliating slab, seemingly the type that each piton pries outward loosening those below. One abhors starting a pitch like this for one knows the gut-biting anxiety, the unrelenting dread as repeatedly there passes across the mind pictures of those pitons being torn from their grip as the body plummets downward. Strangely, it is the thought of the pins ripping out that most horrifies, rather than falling or hitting.
Herbert no more wanted to take a long fall than I did to hold one, and so we were delighted that the flake proved solider than anticipated. Higher, Herbert was stymied by a blank area. After an hour of fruitless effort he reluctantly resorted to using the only bolt we placed on the climb.
The next pitch was great fun; mixed free and aid climbing requiring alertness and good form, but no major efforts or plumbing of one's personal deprhs. We bivouacked at the foot of the arch, one easy pitch higher.
Next morning we passed the arch with the aid of a nut fitted snugly in a slot at the lip of the overhang and next enjoyed some very un-Yosemite-like face climbing among spikes and knobs, cracks and solution pockets, with good nuts and runners for protection and hardly a piton.
After three pitches more or less straight up, there was Herbert belaying in slings just below an excellent ledge. He wasn't on the ledge because it lacked anchors. The weather was beginning to deteriorate as I minced up on rounded holds and began a long aid traverse with pitons hard to place but easy to remove. We finished the traverse and rappelled to a good ledge where we passed a wet night, mostly standing to keeb the rain off our legs. For half the next day we continued standing and sitting as the showers came and went. When they came no more, Herbert climbed up and belayed in slings at the junction of two cracks which disappeared over a bulge above. I joined him and took the left crack. It was the wrong one, and that was too bad because this pitch had some superb face-climbing. It was a wonderland of chockstones, spikes and knobs, enough for nine natural runners. But at the end I hit a blank wall and escaped only by lassoing a horn 30 feet away, thus reaching the other crack which led up from Herbert.
We passed a second night on the same ledge and on the fourth day went up left for several pitches to a large terrace. Just below this terrace is a loose block, a deceptive one. Those who come after are advised to watch out for it and to pass via the face on the right.
Above the terrace is a great dihedral 250 feet high, with a crack in the corner varying from one to ten inches. The wall was still damp, the crack a wet, slimy, gruesome thing, especially at the bottom. Luckily, very luckily, we could by-pass the first 35 feet using a crack on the left wall; this Herbert proceeded to do, eventually making a difficult pendulum into the corner, where he found nuts very useful among flakes and blocks. He continued upward on aid and set up a dripping hanging belay in a streamlet. I joined him and moved past his soggy stance as quickly as possible, using nuts and pitons for aid as I continued up the corner. There were two hard spots where it was necessary to free climb the left wall because the crack opened up too big for pitons and was too steep and slippery to jam. But the left wall was wet and mossy, and hard.
We could barely see in the dusk when Herbert joined me on Thanksgiving Ledge, that fabulous terrace running along for hundreds of feet near the top of El Capitan. We slept in a cave with a sandy floor. There was plenty of firewood, but our matches were wet.
Next day, after two hours of easy climbing, we stood once again on top of El Capitan. It was a fresh and sparkling morning.
The Nose will doubtless always be the most popular big route on El Capitan. It is the least difficult and has the finest line. But the runner-up may well become the west face. It is shorter than the others, has no horror pitches, and contains large doses of moderate but exciting face climbing. We recommend it and hope that others will enjoy it as much as we.
Summary of Statistics.
AREA: Yosemite Valley, California.
ASCENT: El Capitan, first ascent of West Face, June 3 to 7, 1967 (TM Herbert, Royal Robbins).
Technical Details: 195 pitons, 100 nuts (artificial chockstones), 57 runners, 1 bolt. Bongs, nothing above 3". NCCS VI, F8, A4 or A5.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Hi Steve and Steelmonk,
I am sure everyone is glad you posted the AAJ article. It is one of the more casual tales from RR back then. You can tell in it he is getting a little older, wiser and relaxed and most certainly that they had a good time. He loved to sling stuff from a distance too. He was raving about it much later when he backed off the Tangerine Trip in 1971-72. Anything novel was good!
So, anyway, as you can see from the original account the only bolt was on this second pitch, near its top where you stop traversing left (now 5.10a) and head straight up towards a more broken area and your belay. I was able to hook by it on the fifth ascent and in fact I think we removed the bolt....I know, not my call. And that was the only bolt (or hole) we saw I think. HIgher up, at the top of pitch #7, you end on a nice ledge that the Green Roper guide describes as having a bolt. There was no bolt here. And there was no way to anchor here. The ledge did not have a crack in its back. I remember belaying Charlie here from an anchorless position for awhile as he emerged from the sling belay and then moving up on free moves to get some anchors quite a bit higher, returning to the belay ledge. Just for everyone's info, the West Face went all free in May of 1979 at 5.11b.
So in summary, we saw the original TM Herbert bolt, avoided it, and saw no others. Down on the first couple of pitches or more accurately the first real pitch, I remember the anchors being worrisome...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification, Peter! Steel beat me to the post! LOL
Roper only mentions one bolt in his description. Bad assumption on my part.
So this could be a real rarity as a boltless Grade VI! I still would like to do this route and that is what I would be shooting for. I walked a haulbag all the way up there long ago with Paul Davidson and felt silly for approaching the climb that way and decided to leave it for another time.
As per the recent report upthread, would the original bolt likely be the higher of the pair below the runout on pitch 2?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Hey Steve, you gotta pull the trigger! :-)
Just kidding... I had it sitting here and was a spur of the moment deal.
I'm like a machine with the OCR... er OCD... er somethin'.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Most likely the original placement was the lower of the two shown. I think I had something quite positive below my hook move. Above the hook move it was back to ordinary business. It is surprising there are two there by the way.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Steve, I find it interesting that you advocate for an anchorless belay. While a Grade V w/out bolts does have its lure, I think it's foolish to remove bolts from an anchor and leave nothing left to clip, even it that's how it was originally done.
I wonder what the FA team would say about it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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That's why we have a good discussion here, potentially. At this point, I would approach the route in a boltless style but that doesn't necessarily mean that I advocate for all of the bolts on the route being removed. Some consensus is required to arrive the best solution.
RR and TM are around to ask...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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The topo in the 1994 Reid guide is based on one that I drew in 1991, by modifyng the original (1982 or so) Meyers topo.
My version of the topo shows all the fixed pins, nuts and heads that were in place in 1991.
The published topo should be quite accurate in terms of the bolts in place; I doubt any have been added or subtracted since then.
It also shows how to belay short (at a fixed angle piton) below the crux on p7), so that you do not use the bolt belay in the middle of the crux moves.
The runout face variation on p7 may not be shown correctly; I have not climbed that way.
Ryan's comments on MP say a 70m rope is mandatory; not true unless your goal is to belay exactly where he did.
At a minimum there are some extra bolts at belays that should be removed.
The role of bolts is somewhat ambiguous for a climb which was originally mostly an aid climb in the lower half with pitons. In that context, you minimize bolts and use your aid skills. As a free or mostly free climb done without hooks or placing/removing pitons, a few fixed pitons and bolts are helpful. How few? I'm not sure - try it and find out. The number of bolts/pins you need to clip will depend on your ability/risk level, and on how good your nuts and small cams are.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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As just an ordinary spudly climbing community "member", who may or may not ever be up to doing this particular climb, my personal vote would be to pull all the bolts but the one original one - and leave it as an antique 1/4 incher as it seems that there is solid gear right nearby (or, with FA permission, pull that one too). The possibility of a boltless full-size El Cap route is too cool!
That said, it is unlikely the climb would remain quite that clean if there are belay stations that one must use that have no anchors, or insufficient anchors to be reasonably confident. Myself, I'd be OK with the climb being that way (that is, a death route) as long as available info (topo) made it clear what one was going to encounter. It would just be one factor to consider in deciding whether to go for the climb. But sooner or later, it's highly likely someone would upgrade those belay stations for safety. So, if good nut or piton anchors are no longer available somewhere, it's lamentable but probably pragmatic to leave (upgrade) one bolt at such a spot.
For sure, it would be desirable if someone who's good enough were to try to do the climb without the bolts and publicize where solid boltless belays can be had. It is definitely a very worthy goal to try to restore this route to a one- or zero-bolt condition if it can be done. There are so many routes to choose from. We should try to preserve one that is so unique.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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If the goal is to restore/experience the original style of the climb, you could remove everything except that one bolt, and then climb it on aid using pitons, nuts & Kronhofer shoes. Don't forget to do it over several rainy days like Royal and TM! :-)
If the goal is a minimal fixed gear climb, you remove the one bolt also; Peter didn't need it. It might go without pins/heads, but I think the runouts could be bad (p1 & 2), and the p1 belay might be sketchy (maybe belay higher?).
But very many people have done this great climb in its current condition, which is the way it has been since it was freed in 1978. It's one of the classics with multiple 5.11 pitches that people aspire to doing, like Astroman. It has been done so much in its current style that this is what I feel should be preserved.
Here is what I would do if replacing bolts on it:
 replace 1-3 pro bolts on p1 (definitely have a bolt at the 5.11b crux; my topo shows another bolt just below it which might not be needed, and a 3rd at 5.10c above which is probably worth replacing)
Reid 1994 topo shows a belay bolt at p1, my topo does not. I don't recall exactly what the anchor is.
examine first pro bolt on p2; if modern small cams give good pro there, remove it. This bolt was not there in 1978 and for awhile (according to Brian Cox) but was fairly new in 1991. It could be a tough call, since you are climbing right above your belayer.
leave the fixed pins in p2; my topo shows 5 fixed pins and 3 fixed nuts
replace the first of 2 bolts at the very end of the pitch (it's 5.10b somewhat slick and runout there), remove the second one
replace 2 bolts at p2 anchor; remove extra 2. Some people hike up in the afternoon, do the first 2 pitches, and fix down from this anchor. Others use it to retreat, thunderstorms are relatively common during the normal summer climbing season.
next fixed pro is one bolt and one pin at (5); the bolt is maybe not needed if people could bail from there (if the pin is good, and a nut could be left to back it up).
fixed angle piton at recommended belay (6). Leave it; good to bail from, expecially if the next anchor is removed.
2 bolt and slings midway up p7 - remove. This will encourage people to belay lower, and not have the 5.11c crux right in the middle of a sling belay. My topo shows a fixed head just below this, and a fixed pin just above.
at (7) the Reid topo shows a bolt and my topo does not (maybe helpful to have a bolt there)
on p8 my topo shows 4 fixed pins in the 5.11 crack and a fixed head at its top. Plenty of cams can be placed, too. I don't recall if the fixed pins are useful
at (8) both topos show 5 bolts. Replace 2 and remove 3. As Peter mentioned, it is a small ledge with blank above. A fixed anchor is good here for retreating. An alternative would be to belay on gear at the top of the 5.8 crack below this.
ASCA in general is not looking to impose an unexpected style on a climb, but not really wanting to validate non-original bolts, either. Often we take the accepted form of the climb as what appears in the first guidebook topo. Sometimes there are difficult decisions (hence Greg is asking here). Usually what Roger does is replace original bolts, remove extra bolts from belays and leave others as is. On Angel's Approach, it was easy to identify a large number of added bolts by the hanger type (and their location 2' above original bolts) and we removed them.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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I have not done the route, but I have been up about 10 pitches, solo, in 1974 or 1975. I remember only one bolt on the slabs on the first or second pitch. I was using pins and nuts for protection and, since I was self belaying and getting good multidirectional belays or secure placements on lead, I don't see any additional bolts as being necessary, at least from a per-cam era using free and aid.
This is a scan of my 1971 guide. Aside from some tick marks on the route list by grade at the back of the book (which I seemed to have marked in 1971) there are no other marks in the entire book. This supports Peter’s comment about no bolt on the ledge on the 7th pitch. However, unlike Peter, I didn't have any issues getting a belay somehow.
One of my few regrets in my climbing years was not finishing the West Face. Took longer to get down that it would have to go up.
On the relative merits of a boltless El Cap route, adherence to the original route bolts, or maintaining a long-standing level of bolts for free climbers, I would opt for bolts to avoid pins all pins, for both lead and belays, when done as an all free route, but no more. Whatever charm it had for Royal and TM, it is now a free route.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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This is interesting isn't it. Here is MY page from the 1971 guide, altered after Charlie Jackson and i did the 5th ascent, August 1971. I think there might have been a slight error in Roper #2:
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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So what does the ASCA intend to do on this route with essentially no original bolts?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Stevie, I like that cheshire cat grin just now.
I see in Reid 1998 there are FIVE bolts shown at top of #8 even. Maybe---- just thinking here--- they (ASCA) are going to need a backhoe.
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