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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
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Jody, it was justified in Afghanistan.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2005 - 01:00am PT
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Clinton merely stepped up enforcement of the terms of the agreement governing the cessation of hostilities after the first Gulf war. Saddam repeatedly pushed the boundaries of that agreement in his persecution of the Kurds in the North and Shiites in the South along with displaying a flaunting interference with the Weapons Inspection Teams. This was an exercise repeated periodically at different and at different scales. The one cited in the o.p. was simply one of the larger ones, but Juan, it played no role whatsoever in influencing Bush Jr. or the neocons whose agenda was clear and set at the time of their vocal disagreement with Bush Sr.'s refusal to "go all the way to Baghdad".
As to the question of WMD's in 1998 were discussion of remaining quantities of chemical materials obtained previously from US companies and biological materials obtained as late as 1993 from none other than our CDC. Gamma ray monitoring kept fissionable material out of Iraq and they lacked a ballistic missle for their previously known nuclear-capable warhead designs and lacked nuclear-capable warheads for their conventional SCUDS. Efforts at building such warheads for their SCUDS or completing their newer ballistic missile were the focus of UN efforts on the nuclear front. Keep in mind all of Iraq's WMD programs were directly and enthusiastically supported by the US during the Iran-Iraq war.
The Iraq WMD question has never been one of certainty either pro or con. The Bush administration's crime has been one of setting up a seperate "intelligence" operation in the Defense department to "cook" questionable and debunked intel and innuendo to produce statements were pronounced "facts" backed by "evidence" at the UN and State of the Union addresses. This manufacturing and propagandization of "evidence" when none was forthcoming from the intelligence community is the clear treason perpetrated by this administration.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 01:55am PT
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Folks... doesn't the track record speak for itself? Jody will simply ignore any question or comment he cannot wrap his brain around to answer. If logic is involved it's over. That's about.... oh... um.... 90% of the questions/comments.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 04:04am PT
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So Jody and Fattrad, let me get this straight:
If we are completely against Bush now, then by default we agreed with Clinton and his administration when these speeches/interviews took place?
I disagreed with Clinton's choice for military action (a couple of missles) and disagreed with his claims and assessment of the Mid East and Iraq at the time. Ironic, though, in 1998 you guys probably sat back in your recliners with a beer and yelled out loud to the television "yeah, kick ass slick willy!"
Always one must be on one side or the other with you two. Black or white, no possibility of thinking on one's own. Similar to the Creation/Evolution thread from way back when Jody more or less claimed that disproving evolution proves the creationist myth.
You guys need to get out and climb more, either that or the collars on your shirts squeeze your necks so tight it's cutting of the circulation to your brains.
p.s. you guys repeat ad nauseum that 9/11 changed everything and yet you continue (on this thread and Fattrad in the other thread on Iraq) to dig up quotes from 7-10 years ago. Which is it? If 9/11 changed everything, then a Clinton quote from 1996 or 1998 does not mean anything.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 17, 2005 - 08:29am PT
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Jody: "The Demoncrats' diatribes against Bush are so despicable and ridiculous that they border on treason for giving encouragement to the enemy..."
Jody, do you really think that sh*t? You may be one heck of a photographer, perhaps even a good cop, but you certainly have your head up someplace where the sun never shines when it comes to politics.
Edit
Mick Ryan: “I couldn't give a toss who is in power in the US as far as being a Democrat or a Republican.
“It's just important that you have someone who is honest and the current President is far from that.”
Very well put Mick. I may have been a registered Democrat, but I have crossed party lines several times when voting. I don’t vote for a party, I vote for a candidate and what they stand for and how much integrity they have.
IMO, George W Bush has no integrity whatsoever. Zilch, none, zip, zero, not an iota. Therefore he has no credibility in my eyes.
Healyje, very, very well put. I can't better it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:02am PT
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Dick Cheney, Aug. 26, 2002: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
Dick Cheney, Sept. 2002: "[Saddam Hussein] has indeed stepped up his capacity to produce and deliver biological weapons ... he has reconstituted his nuclear program to develop a nuclear weapon."
Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003: "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
Well Dick, where are they?
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:15am PT
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Jody said:
If you want to quietly voice disagreement
Jody, maybe you should go live in some police state where dissent is not expressly protected in the constitution. Around here, what you just said is unamerican and unpatriotic. How dare you suggest that only ineffective dissent is protected? Maybe you'd rather if we were a bit more like China or the old Soviet Union and we could just ship people off when they dare to criticize the government?
Fattrad said:
Clinton did not start the war, but he had a chance to get OBL but declined because of a Saudi Prince.
And bush declined so he didn't make things bad for Musharev. What's your point? At least when Clinton failed to get him OBL hadn't yet attacked US soil. Bush's bailing was worse.
Jody said:
Saddam is no longer killing his own people and is no longer a threat to us
No matter what any president may have said during the buildup, there's no evidence that Saddam has ever been a threat to us. Ever. Period. Show me some evidence otherwise. It hasn't been displayed yet. Saying "nyah ha" after 9/11 is not presenting a threat. It's being a dumbass.
And what's this with saying that democrats have changed their tune? Clinton was lambasted by democrats (I don't mean the politicians, I mean citizen. Politicians are mostly scum. We all know it) for his attempts to punish Iraq further. Clinton was cowtowing to the middle of the road, just like all politicians do from time to time, and it pissed me off then just like Bush's BS pisses me off now.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:30am PT
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Jody, you're not a fascist by any chance, are you?
And you Fattrad?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:36am PT
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Jody-Dissent is patriotic!
Does anyone else think that Dick Cheney looks evil??
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 17, 2005 - 11:59am PT
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Batten - I have a serious question for you. Ever since I've seen you posting here and rec.climbing - you have almost never been serious. Literally every post for the last 5-6 years has been a troll of some sort. Many were funny... some pissed off the ladies... the gentleman amung us.
But since you started posting at ST.com in the last couple months... maybe since Largo engaged you, I see you either attempting to open up a bit about yourself - trying to actually have conversations. but then you say things like 'the civilians who died in iraq had it coming because of their karma' or similar drivel.
So what is it man? You want to be real or full of sh#t?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:24pm PT
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Fattrad wrote: The US is not "fighting" Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi, we are continuing the religious battles of fourteen hundred years.
Why and what is the plan??
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ikellen
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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One fact stands above them all for me:
After September 11th, we have:
Knocked out Saddam Hussein, someone who has nothing to our people or our country.
Killed many Iraqi citizens who, again, did nothing to us
Lost over 2,000 of our own men in achieving the beforementioned accomplishments.
Now, after September 11th, we have not:
Captured Osama Bin Laden, the Terrorist organizer who we know was responsible for orchestrating the September 11th attacks. He actually DID do something to us, yet he still runs free.
So Jody, we have killed a bunch of people that didn't deserve to die, we have supposedly infused democracy into Iraq (I still don't see a stable country), but we have not captured the man responsible for taking the lives of over 500 of our innocent men and women who were just going to work. Would you please explain how this logic equates to how the Iraq war was good?
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:43pm PT
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"There's no country going to attack you Juan, just a a bunch of idiots spread across the globe"
Hahaha. Perfect.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:45pm PT
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You need to group the Saudi Waahbis, Iranian Mullahs, Taliban into one group, no movies, no tv, controlled religious media, no womens rights, death to gays, conversion or death of infidels.
Hmm. Now who else does this sound like? Mmmmm. Sounds an awful lot like the christian fundamentalists that your beloved GOP sold out to. Well, except for the TV part, I guess.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 17, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
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Strongly voiced dissent was OK when folks like Jody and my mother et al were going after Clinton. But now that the table turns it's funny to see how the value changes. They don't know how to deal with being a hypocrite so they just ignore I guess... like i said, we've seen the history - it's impossible to engage Jody in a logical conversation.
Remember the ID thread a while back where he pointed to his ear as proof of ID? Yeah... when we couldn't respond to that he WON (in his mind atleast). (I couldn't respond because it took weeks before I quit LMAO)
it's pointless folks... pointless.
For what it's worth. I'm registered Green. In the last election I voted for one Democrat and one Republican (as well as my local and state initiatives [like to ban super-fscking-wallmarts]). Any one care to guess the Rebulican i strongly support? It's easy really. Hell.. he might have received my vote for president. he may one day....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Hey Shithead in Colorado!
Everything I post is a Troll.
Jeff Batten
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 17, 2005 - 01:30pm PT
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awww, jeez Jeff Batten... did you get your feelings hurt?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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Get a f*#king life, stop being so interested in what others are doing or saying. You are in the minority if you do not understand me.
Juanito "All my posts are Trolls" De Fuca
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 17, 2005 - 02:06pm PT
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Oh please. You want to play the "for the sake of our troops" card? How about this... for the sake of our troops, put somebody in charge who isn't dragging this thing out without being open and honest about it.
I'm curious, have you ever been enlisted?!
I have.
Squids, jarheads, grunts and flyboys are not losing sleep over Bush getting called to task. PLEASE!!! What a BS - Hannity response.
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