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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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Thats my question also.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 22, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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what regular individual that is just starting out guiding today
It is certainly possible, and one can indeed live a fulfilling, enjoyable, exciting life.
But don't kid yourself regarding the costs/benefits of AMGA instruction and certification. The organization certainly runs some fine courses, and does so professionally. (Werner's comments might best be regarded as referring to the AMGA's historically interesting "incorporation," no?) You might even learn something!
The few friends I have who have attained certification have made some major sacrifices in their lifestyle, OR have significant family backing, OR have an employment infrastructure set up so the costs don't sting so much. If you, too, can marry someone with an EU passport, or who owns a heli ski business in BC, by all means, go for it, you'll have a wonderful life.
If, however, you're like me, who pursued guiding for almost a decade, expect to make a paltry living, with a huge hole in your resume at the end of it.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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"Thats my question also."
Ryan, is your query genuine? Do you really have an interest in this line of work? If so, please excuse this next statement:
This thread could easily be interpreted as a troll to generate more negativity and resentment towards the guiding industry and training/certification process. If that is your motive, please be straight-up about it: while it can become pretty vitriolic, it can also be a worthwhile discussion.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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Guides are one step below Child Molesters. . .
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apogee
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Chief, not sure what your point is, but I have personally paid for each of the professional certifications (and multiple recertifications) that have been required for my various positions in the outdoor education industry. None of my employers have ever paid for them, nor subsidized me.
And I agree...you do sound bitter about this issue for whatever reason.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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even the boy scouts require certification, but it has nearly nothing to do with climbing or safety
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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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I put up this post because I genuinely enjoy sharing the mountain experience with others.
I thought I could get some insight into the process of becoming a guide.
Certainly had no idea people would get worked up about it. Guess I should have know better though.
Thanks to everyone who responded with their thoughts.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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Chief, I am in complete agreement with you that the costs (both time and $) of certification are nowhere near validated by the income level that one typically receives as a guide. Even if one owns a guide service, the income potential is still barely commensurate with what it costs to become certified. Having watched the industry grow for a long time, the disconnect between the costs of this new 'professionalism' and the compensation has become more and more evident. Unless you are 26 y/o trustafarian living out of your truck, this is not a sustainable career path, and is far from the European guide-as-time-honored-profession that has been aspired to.
Rock certifications (AMGA, PCGI, PCIA, etc.) are only one certification of many disciplines of outdoor education- there are plenty more, depending on whether you are into kayaking, sailing, canoeing, ropes courses, backpacking, wilderness therapy...whatever...there is now a certification program related to that discipline. And of course, these specific certs are in addition to the medical certs that are expected of anyone- the development of wilderness medicine certification programs are now industry standards for any discipline. I scratch my head sometimes wondering how anyone would choose a career path like this.
I don't think, however, that the reason for these certification programs is simply one of mafioso-style profit motivation (even if kind of has that outward effect). For the most part, these cert programs are not big money makers, even at the rates they charge for participation. Running an outdoor program managing costs will give you a very different view of what these cert programs actually cost to run, while maintaining the organization as a whole.
The proliferation of all of these cert programs is due to an industry that has been growing, driven by a lot of people who strongly believe in what they are doing. Outdoor/Adventure education is a values-rich, resource($)-poor line of work, and over the years, as the need for better training and education became apparent, various motivated (sometimes overly-idealistic) individuals stepped forward to fill the need. Associations have been created, land managers and insurance companies took notice, and the expectation for these certs became more mainstream. Each of the associations tries to put itself forward as 'the one', as it better serves their interests. The upshot to this has become a set of standards and expectations that are way out of step with what a practitioner or guide can actually make.
I have long believed that it would be in the best interests of all outdoor programs and guide services if they sat down together and agreed to raise their participation rates by at least 50%. While professional training and certification is useful, it has to be offset somewhere down the line by compensation levels that are reasonable.
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Aaron Johnson
climber
Bear Valley, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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As a guide service owner/operator I find this topic interesting. True the state of the biz is less than ideal ...
Personally I encourage aspiring guides to find a main source of income outside of guiding. For example, school teachers get the summer off, and construction workers get a lot of time off in the winter. This isn't a perfect solution but it takes the edge off full-time guide realities.
Yes, AMGA training and certification promote better guiding and instruction. But there is a "chicken & egg" dilemma that current guides are stuck in the middle of.
Sorry "ryankelly" I don't offer any clear and decisive answers, but proceed cautiously and plan your exit strategy accordingly.
Personally I have enjoyed working in the guiding biz and wouldn't have done things any differently. But it ain't easy!
Best of luck to you.
Cheers!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I had a friend do the AMGA guide cert. He said that it was very challenging and he felt that he got a lot out of it.
He'd been guiding for years and wanted to improve his skills and increase his opportunities with other companies. He approached it like he was paying for college, and as though the main goal was to be the best guide that he could be, not necessarily the richest one. Plenty of people study philosphy at pricey private schools. The value that they seek isn't necessarily a big monetary ROI. (He had other sources of income to help pay for it too.)
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coondogger
Trad climber
NH
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Apr 23, 2010 - 08:39am PT
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The guide certification process is really important for a bunch of reasons. The primary reason is that it should move a student from the perspective of climber to caregiver who is entirely responsible for the life, education and physical safety of another life and quite often the lives of children. So many people discredit the process and find reason to dismiss the education process as a guide. It is not to be taken lightly no matter your physical climbing ability. Guide/educator and skilled expert climber are two entirely different matters.
The problem with the courses are the same as in any education system. The educator you choose to take the course with is critical. The educator should be an expert in teaching and guiding. An instructor without the ability to communicate effectively, without an excellent curriculum will waste your money. Your own investment in the process is the most important element in your education as a teacher and guide.
Guides are not in place to demonstrate prowess they are in place to lead folks safely in the mountains and to educate. Guides must have the ability to think critically and effectively for themselves and their clients.
The process is expensive and there are issues with the offerings and system but that does not entirely discount the program and need. The most glaring deficiency in the AMGA program is the pedagogy component. The coursework currently limits itself to content knowledge in hard skills. Pedagogy is either not understood well-enough or addressed in the courses.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 23, 2010 - 10:22am PT
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I agree that teaching skills are lagging in the AMGA program. They are harder to define and convey. More in the direction of an art form.
I'll go one further. To me the essence of guiding is client handling. How you address the whole person before you. It includes teaching, and a lot more. Great guides, like Allan Bard was, have that sensitivity toward their clients and tune their offerings, from the tales they tell to the level of instruction.
Technical skills are necessary but not sufficient. To me the rope tricks like how to lower an unconscious client are similar to your medical skills and avalanche training. Once you have them all under your belt, you are ready to learn to guide.
That education, as several have pointed out, is very dependent on the instructor. Here's a left-field example. A few days ago I was at a conference where Ram Dass was piped in to one of the panels on a live video feed. He was formerly a Harvard psychology professor, since remade as a guru. An audience question asked his opinion of psychotherpy. His reply: "Psychotherapy? Oh boy. I think you're lucky if you get Buddha for your therapist."
Guiding often includes an element of therapy. I have sat on ledges with clients crying. Soloed up next to someone frozen in fear to speak reassurance in their ear. (The calm voice is more important than what you say. Then they notice that you are unroped on the same terrain where they're gripped.) I've started many responses by saying, "I'm not a therapist, but..."
See? It ultimately comes down to the person you are as a guide. Which is difficult to teach. Helping someone become a guide is more like mentoring. It takes time and personal attention. It helps to be guiding shoulder-to-shoulder. Talk about a time-consuming process. As a young guide I was instructed and ultimately illuminated by guiding under Don Jensen, Bob Swift, Smoke Blanchard. And I have passed it on. Far more for love than money. It's more like the direct transmission from a Zen Master than learning the cuts of a surgeon.
To get practical, I recommend the PCIA because it is run by Todd Vogel, the best guide I know. The "I" is for Instructor; there's an emphasis on teaching.
The PCGI was started by Zeke Federman. I recently spent several hours climbing with him and was impressed by his warmth and caring.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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While the AMGA has always acknowledged the presence of education in guiding, it hasn't appeared to be as much of a priority as technical skills. The one area where the AMGA seemed to make real strides in this direction was the Top Rope Site Manager program (now Single Pitch Instructor). Unfortunately, there seemed to be many of the 'old guard' in the organization that resisted it's development altogether, and while it is now a solid program, there still seems to be conflicts in the organization about what the SPI program is, who it should serve, and where it fits in the range of guiding disciplines.
Because the TRSM/SPI program didn't seem to be effectively serving an obvious need in the outdoor/adventure ed industry, it wasn't surprising to see the PCIA & PCGI come forward to fill that void. I, too tend to have leanings towards the PCIA, simply because of my knowledge and confidence in the drivers of the organization: Todd Vogel, Will Friday, and Jon Tierney (who was the primary developer of AMGA's original TRSM program). These gents have well-known and demonstrated commitments to the outdoor education industry in many differing disciplines, and have the combined expertise to create a training program that serves a very important need. I just wish that the efforts of the PCIA were more prominent, visible, and accessible- to date, they have remained fairly low profile (at least in the West).
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Ok, time to enter the conversation here! As many already know I am an AMGA supporter,
and have taken all the courses and exams over the years; the rock intructor, the rock guide,
the alpine guide, and the ski mountaineering guide exam. I estimate that it has cost me
27K to take all the courses, exams, travel to various venues (Cascades, Canada, Valdez, etc.), and upgrade some gear to facilitate all this. As an IFMGA Certified Guide (approx. 50 in the USA) I can legally guide in Canada, Europe, etc. and do take advantage of this benefit. And yes, this 27K has paid off. Don't most people pay tuition at college?
For me, the training and associating with other professionals has been invaluable. I have learned
tons thru my association with many other guides, who work in a multitude of venus, and this has excellerated the learning curve. It has opened many doors as I can now work nearly anywhere in the USA thru the contacts I have made. This winter I was guiding ice in New Hampshire, I have an open invitation in the Tetons, guide in Red Rocks, Joshua Tree, N. Cascades, etc. These benefits do take time to develop, and many a guide friend who has payed their dues has the same benies.
Other Certs: I don't have much say regarding the PCIA or the PCGI that's good. These "certs" lead nowhere! The international guide association, UIAGM/IFMGA, deals with just one organization per country. The review process to allow a new country into the IFMGA takes years to complete. The other "certs" screw folks as they are only a copy of AMGA programs (with a few minor twists) and should someone determine that they like guiding as a profession, they would have to start back at the introductory level with the AMGA programs. (thus adding even more time and costs). Add to this that one of these organizations was founded by a fellow who
failed the AMGA entry level certification on two occasions and has claimed to be THEE most highly skilled and trained rock guide in the country.....Say What ? Now, that is great humor, but clearly dishonest.
Chief sez "SAMOF, I have seriously looked into the PGCI Program as it works the way AMGA used to work BITD, is far more personable, will design the course/test around the students needs and the cost per course are far more reasonable/doable."
My question for you Chief is: When an organization will change their courses/tests around what a student needs, rather than maintain a standard...isn't that a bit funny?
So, all this to say...if you are considering a career in guiding, take AMGA Rock Instructor Course, see if it works for you, then post your experience here. We'll be interested to see what you have to say.
Doug Nidever
IFMGA Certified Guide
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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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Apr 23, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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There are a few companies that train their own people and have been doing it longer AMGA. Try NOLS
MMM
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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I would certainly concur with Dave, that not everyone is cut out to be a guide. If a person
has learning disabilities or cannot function when stress levels rise maybe they should seek
out another career rather than try to change/lower the standard of the guiding profession.
Doug
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apogee
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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"These "certs" lead nowhere!"
That rationale has commonly been exclaimed by the old guard of the AMGA against the whole concept of the TRSM program. To not see the place that the TRSM/SPI program had in the outdoor/adventure education industry strikes me as either a) the highest level of elitism and exclusivity; or b)completely out of touch with the much greater world of outdoor education. The fact is, for most participants in TRSM, PCIA or PCGI, those certs don't need to lead anywhere- the training they will receive there is targeted at a context in which most will never venture beyond.
Doug, the kind of technical guiding you do is at the highest level, and I have the greatest respect for your demonstrated commitment to a historic and honorable profession. That kind of technical guiding, though, makes up a tiny percentage of the total number of participation days that are generated by the outdoor/adventure education industry as a whole. From summer camps to rock gyms to Outward Bound to NOLS to professional development programs to scout groups to school outdoor programs....there are so many differing ways that people experience rock climbing. For a large percentage of those participants, their climbing will be solely experiential, with no real aspirations to become a 'climber'.
The leaders who will provide those experiences need some training, and the statistical facts of the outdoor ed industry show that their tenures will be a few years at most. Idealists and curmudgeons (both tend to abound here on ST) can easily grouse about the fact that such short-timers shouldn't be involved in the first place, but that just isn't realistic. These leaders/instructors/whatever need access to a level of training that targets their needs, is reasonably accessible, and is of reasonable cost. The TRSM/SPI course was a very good effort to serve those needs, and the PCIA & PCGI are both aimed at the same thing.
Expecting anyone who guides or teaches rock climbing to obtain an AMGA Rock Instructor certification is like expecting all summer camp counselors to obtain their Paramedic as the minimum medical cert requirement- it ain't gonna happen. The AMGA only acknowledged this reality to a limited extent, and because of inner strife over the existence and direction of the TRSM/SPI, two organizations stepped in to fill that void. If the advent of such entry-level educational programs results in a greater number of leaders out there who are more skilled when teaching other people's family members a potentially dangerous activity, I'm all for it.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 24, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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I think (if memory serves) that my experience during an AMGA "examination" was the first and only time in my (relatively brief) guiding career that I felt like I was being treated like a CLIENT. It was incredibly ironic.
To the best of my knowledge the AMGA Instructor and Examiner pool has been "improving" significantly since then, and I hope the org. disposes of the chummy/fraternal/unprofessional undertone that was previously quite palpable.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 24, 2010 - 02:34am PT
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Bruce, answering your question is largely dependent on how one defines 'guiding' in the US.
At Doug's level of technical mountain guiding (which is the highest, most specialized level), such guides probably make $250-$400/day, depending on whether they are guiding as an employee of a company, acting as an independent contractor, or operate their own guide service. (If you are in a similar category as Doug, feel free to correct as necessary.)
If you hold an AMGA Rock Instructor cert, and guide as an employee or IC for a guide service, you probably make $150-$250 a day. This is more common than the above level of certification, but only serves a relatively small percentage of the total amount of clients and participant days that are generated via rock climbing.
The area where most participant days are generated (by far) are in a low level of technical expertise, providing rock climbing to first-timers &/or limited experience, i.e. summer camps, entry-level outdoor programs, school programs, etc. In this kind of context, wages can typically range between $80-$200/day, depending on experience, certification, and scope/nature of the program.
While the mid-upper daily rates can sound reasonable, it is worth keeping in mind that no such guide brings in those rates 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year. There simply isn't that much work out there, and even if there was, the work is so physically and mentally exhausting that such a pace could never be sustained.
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