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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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it's not all white space in this case though...
We know his body and the camera might be out there, we know parts of the story, and speculate about the rest. I wouldn't mind the story being more understood...and perhaps a better gasp and respect for what happened.
Who knows, in lots of cases the real story turns out to be more intriguing than anything conjured...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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My personal feelinig is that if Irvine's body is ever found, a careful and respectful forensic search (on the spot) of his possessions is in order, then RIP.
JL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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I believe that the 1999 expedition did what it could to bury Mallory's body, using rocks. Which is more than can be said of others. A friend was up there last spring, and saw bodies everywhere, especially on the higher reaches of the ridge. People sit or lie or fall down, and don't get up. Pretty gruesome.
Has anyone asked Irvine's family about this? Would they like their ancestor's body to be found, and if so, what would they want done with it? A fine balance - there's a tiny chance that one or both of Mallory and Irvine got to the top, and if so, that there is surviving proof on Irvine's body. Which would make them even more famous. Balanced against whatever is done to find and examine the body - although it seems unlikely that it would be found now.
Ultimately it depends on what the Chinese government allows - they control that side of the mountain. If they see an opportunity to make money, or promote themeselves, or simply don't care, that may be that.
Of course, it's possible that the configuration of key areas of the upper northeast ridge has changed significantly since 1924. Pre-war photos aren't very clear. There might have been a significant rockfall in the 1938 - 1960 period, that made the second step and vicinity much harder. No one can prove it didn't happen, after all. (Parroting the local conspiracy theorists and believers...) In 1924, the first and second steps might have been a regular staircase...
The news about finding some of Shackleton's whisky brings up another aspect of this morbid subject. There's ongoing argument as to what actually happened to Scott, Wilson, Bowers, Oates and Evans. It's probably impossible now to find the bodies of Evans and Oates. However, the bodies of the others were buried in a known location. Given modern knowledge and technology, and a lot of money, it may be possible to find and uncover them. Movement of the Ross Ice Shelf is fairly well understood, which should narrow it down to perhaps a 10 km x 10 km area, or less. They were buried with a considerable amount of ferrous metals. With a good aerial magnetometer survey, it should be possible to locate the bodies. Just look for a significant anomaly in the right area - the only other possible anomalies in the ice shelf would be erratic boulders. The bodies are probably 20 - 30 m (or more?) down, but the shelf is several hundred m thick, or more. So it would take some serious excavating to get to them.
It seems most likely that they died from a combination of vitamin deficiency (e.g. scurvy) and malnutrition, and from generally having been a bit over their heads. Autopsies would quickly show what had happened, and even after almost a century, the bodies should be well-preserved.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Quite some time ago I proposed a plan for easily cleaning up this mountain. Give cargo nets to the sherpas (they are the ones who can actually work up there - right?) and transport them up to the areas to be cleared using Ericksson SkyCranes. As the nets are filled the cranes can come back, snag them and move out over the valley. To save fuel the cranes don't have actually to come down to unload. They just move out till they are directly over base camp. Once there they can release the trash even though they are still at nearly 30,000 feet altitude. The trash will go where it needs to go.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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Actually, even when you think you may have proved something, maybe you haven't. Piton Ron mentioned the Everett Ruess finding. More recent evidence has proven those remains not be Everett's.
Even if they find Irvine and a camera, maybe the camera with fake film was planted by Chris Bonington on a sneak expedition to prove that an Englishman was first to the top instead of a Kiwi.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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I thought Tenzing Norgay was first to the top. Accompanied by that rangy Kiwi - you know, the porter who was good at carrying big loads and chopping steps.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 10, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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All of the American expeditions who have searched for Mallory and Irvine have conferred extensively with the families on their wishes. It was the wish of the Mallory family that a short Church of England committal service be done and so it was done by Conrad and companions before covering the body with rocks. I'm sure the Irvine family has also made their wishes known.
Meanwhile, interesting speculation about the Chinese moving things. I never heard that before.
The head of the Sherpa Mountaineering Assn. has said that at some point part of the cleaning of the mountain should be the removal of bodies.
The goddess who lives on Everest is not the mother goddess of the earth as the English translations say, but one of five goddess sisters who used to take human life mostly young men, as sacrifice, before being converted to Buddhism. Sometimes I wonder if they have not reverted to their old ways. Strange karma then that young men continue to sacrifice themselves.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 10, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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Is it not somewhat implied that when one embarks on a "public" feat of discovery - that one relents the notion of "privacy".
I tend to believe that had Irvine made it back alive- he would have embarked on a financially lucrative worldwind tour of his exploits. The fact that he died in his attempt does not recuse him of his duty.
Leave the body. Bring back the camera.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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Wow, what a fascinating mystery! Did you guys look at this, precisely HOW they have located what might be Irvine's body? Satellite forensics, and the vague outline of what might be a body on so forbidding a mountainscape? How cool is that?!
http://www.velocitypress.com/IrvineSearch.htm
Or how about this? PRECISELY what to do with the camera when you find it, how to transport it, and how to develop the film:
http://www.velocitypress.com/mallory_irvine.shtml#A127_Film
Imagine if they found the camera, developed the film, and there was a summit shot?! History would be rewritten!
By all means, treat Irvine's remains with dignity and according to the wishes of his family, but bring back the camera!
Hey - where's Conrad Wanker when you need his input?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
You wrote this quote in the bible verses thread.
"Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Pr 17:28
Never, ever call Conrad a "wanker" again ......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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Good grief, Werner - I speak in jest!
Then again, what do I know? I'm just a Big Wall Pavenu. Bwah-ha-h-ah-aha!!!111111111111
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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Why would lesbian Yetis need boy toys?
Take the camera and other artifacts (before they are stolen anyway) and bury the body on the mountain.
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John Morton
climber
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Feb 11, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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I am as fascinated as the next guy by these discoveries. Right up there with the plan to clone Jesus from DNA on the Shroud of Turin.
But I have a very strong sense of loss each time I see the disappearance of another frontier. The advance of knowledge doesn't compensate for it. Imagine when there were truly blank spaces on the maps of most continents, and how that would stir the adventurous soul.
John
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 11, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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What Werner said.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 11, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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I forgot to mention that the Sherpas say that one of the ways they were able to cross into Nepal 500 years ago, was the fact that there was so much more snow and so fewer crevasses then. In my own experience I have seen a local glacial lake in Rolwaling which was already the world's largest and deepest, double in size in only 20 years.
I think the supposition that the second step was a lot easier then, is almost certainly correct. It also seems that global warming may have been going on long before we in the West became aware of it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 11, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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I got hold of Conrad, and he told me he'll chime in when he gets a moment. Definitely wanna get the take from the guy who found Mallory.
Also Conrad - weren't you and Leo up there? What happened with that?
And what is your personal opinion - any chance Mallory and/or Irvine might have summited Everest? Could the Second Step have been easier when snow-covered?
Cheers,
Pete
BWP
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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You know we have a Universe filled with mystery and the unknown. We have eternity ahead of us to figure it all out. We have an eternity of problems to figure out and work on.
By searching, striving to know, we advance and do better. Everyone loves a mystery, and the search to know is very addictive. It is what we do. If we searched for knowledge and scientific truths and never figured out anything, we would have given up out of desperation a long, long time ago. "Seek and you will find" is a very powerful promise and addictive drug for the mind.
It is a good thing that we figure out some mysteries. If we didn't figure out some mysteries and have success, then why would we ever bother?
I would like to known the whole truth of Irving and Mallory on Everest. It won't deminish the mystery in my mind at all. The more I know about the story, the truth, and the possibilites, the more I get interested in the drama and the complete story.
I think Conrad's team was very respectful of Mallory and the family. I have no problem with what they did. We all want to know, and as a result we now know some of the mystery. Some of the puzzle is now figured out.
I would like to see it finished.
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pulthru
Trad climber
Wenatchee, WA
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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I had a very interesting conversation with Conrad at the Lander Climbing Festival the summer after the discovery of Mallory. He was immensely respectful and deeply thoughtful about the experience. Definately not a wanker!
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Conrad
climber
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Feb 12, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Hi campers. Hope this finds you well and enjoying the good things in life. The 'stand' is nice in that the big E and this story don't often show up. Any how; my two cents worth.
Tom Holzel is an amazing historian, who along with Audrey Saukeld set the stage for the 99 expedition with their book "First on Everest". This fine book was a reference for our group and the final chapter with the hypothesis set our imaginations running. I have read his latest paper referencing the high resolution images of the north side of Everest. Commendable work and true diligence on his part.
The lump could be Irvine, it could be another body, it could be an abandoned pack or a lump of snow. It might be helpful to have several images to reference to compare various snow levels. A picture mid winter in a dry year (as this winter is) might be most telling.
Did they summit in '24?
Highly improbable but not impossible. The Second Step was a cliff in '24 and was not snowed in. The tea planters on Darjeeling noted the winter of 23-24 as being exceptionally dry. When coupled with the image by Somervell of Norton below the Yellow Band taken on 4 June '24 one can see it is very dry. They would have had to free climb the step (pitons and biners only came about in the 30s and were not seen as sporting by the English) and then down climb it. All this at altitude.
This is the Second Step on the 14th of June 07. We pulled the ladder with permission from the Chinese. I led the bit with a # 4 cam placed with a 2 x 4 stack to make it fit. It actually worked. I thought it to be .10 a in mountain boots, but Leo thought it to be 5.9. He ought to know - quite the gun he is. Might just be the highest technical climbing in the world, but WGAF, eh?
Respect.
In 99 we preformed a commital service at the request of the family. We read Psalms 103. No matter how much dignity and humility we approached this situation with we were bound to ruffle a few feathers. Paupers in Haiti after an earthquake (10) or mass burials in Kosovo (99) is journalism. Images of national heros being desecrated is taboo. Anyhow ... my main detractors are always genial in person yet can be vitrolic in print.
Rubbish
The trash on the mountain is aesthetic in nature. Not pleasing to the eye, yet not nearly as significant as pollution that affects the quality of life. The authorities demand a bond that goes a ways to making sure people clean up after themselves.
The early pioneers on Everest were commendable in what they were able to achieve. By keeping their efforts first in our minds we do them a great honor.
Mallory's timeless quote:
"Have we vanquished an enemy? None but ourselves."
Sums up climbing.
Leo and me chilling just below the summit, 14 June 07.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 12, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Thank you Conrad.
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