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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 18, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Unsuccesful at what? Seems like they are accomplishing most of their goals. Politicizing the semi-independent parts of the executive branch like the EPA, CIA and FDA. Massive, crippling tax cuts for the rich that keep their donor base happy, fool middle and lower class people into thinking they are being helped and gut the budget so that Democrats have no money to support government programs with. He has strengthened the role of the President making me wonder if conservatives wouldn't really rather have a king, though clearly it is starting to come back and bite him in the ass.
Granted none of these things actually help your average American, but that isn't what the right wing of the Republican party is interested in, and the more moderate Republicans (like Fatty) just want to win and the aggressive bullying, hypocritic tactics of the far-right have been working, so why not go with the flow, even if you are a moderate like Arnie? Relabel tax cuts 'tax relief,' brand teachers and nurses as 'special interests' and then raise a record amount of money from 'real people' like business lobbies, uber-rich businessmen and political interest groups and you have yourself a campaign.
"The haves and the have-mores. Some call you the elite. I call you my base."
-Dubya
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426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
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Oct 18, 2005 - 03:36pm PT
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"Now, watch this drive"...
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 18, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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And as far as scripted media events, virtually all of Bush's stuff is essentially scripted. Any 'town hall' you see or campaign event of his is highly vetted and likely scripted. This is not uncommon in campaigns at all. My father was asked to ask a certain question at a Gore 'town hall' meeting back in 1999. Bush has definitely taken it to a new level though with the signing of loyalty oathes and what have you. People should know though that a huge amount of what you see on TV is scripted.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 18, 2005 - 03:57pm PT
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fattrad:
Show me the evidence about 10 yr old boys...
So now you're a skeptic? Why didn't you demand proof of WMDs?????
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Festus
Mountain climber
Antelope Valley
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Oct 18, 2005 - 04:02pm PT
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In reply to Spinmaster's post:
As is the response to it.
I agree with you almost completely, Spinmaster, but one of the reasons people can't see (or don't care to see) such scripting is that it gets supported or attacked--in a way that ends up legitimizing it--by all the professional pundits out there on both sides who have largely buried any good, objective news reporting (at least as far as ratings are concerned). John Stewart has it right, and makes the case a helluva lot better than I can.
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2652831?htv=12
Too bad he lost his cool, but still...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 18, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
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fattrad:
If Saddam had been will to show the WMD proof then he'd still be in office.
I don't follow the logic of this statement. It was up to Saddam to prove he had WMDs? Bush used WMDs as his excuse to invade, it would seem to me that it was Bush who had to provide proof. He didn't, and you were fine with that.
If Saddam could have proven he did not have WMDs, then Bush would have moved on to a new excuse. Which is what he has been doing. I forget, what is the latest rationale for the war? I can't keep track.
OTH, Kim Jong Il has proven that he has WMDs. He is safe and sound. Is that what you meant? If Saddam had really possesed WMDs he would still be running the show?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 18, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
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Festus....sooooooo glad that clip is still on the net. Too bad he lost his cool? Hell no! He nailed that dead on!
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Festus
Mountain climber
Antelope Valley
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Oct 18, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
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Spin,
He definitely nailed it absolutely dead on, though it looks like a slightly different version of that clip than I remember. I recall a line from Stewart like "but I'll be funny tomorrow and you'll still be a dick" that I didn't see on this version.
Anyway, I only meant that what got lost in some (okay, most) of the reporting on this incident is that Stewart's point was a dead-on indictment of that kind of "news" as performed by (and for) both the left and the right. The incident tended to be reported like it was just another one-liner clash/flare-up between a liberal and a conservative, which I guess is sadly ironic, and Stewart's point got completely washed over, which is also sadly ironic.
Anyway, the Daily Show is the best thing on TV these days, and
it's damned interesting to see how many Republicans want to, and will, come on for the interview portion. Tune in, folks!
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 18, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
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Festus it is the reason I have cable. And the reason Repubs are willing to go on is because he typiclly makes them look good, and usually when things get serious he actually engages them in meaningful dialogue instead of shouting them down or editing them afterwards so he will look better.
Fatty- Proof? Like the fact that UN inspectors have been to the nuclear facilities and were actively monitoring them? Like the fact that they have ADMITTED having a program and had made it clear well before then (like the 1990's) that nuclear weapons were a goal? You can't compare the evidence against N. Korea with Iraq as equal when the Bush Administration was begging..hoping..DREAMING that Saddam would turn up some evidence and they are wishing every night that N. Korea would just fall into the Pacific. I think you are being more than a little silly by trying to claim there is an equivalency there. It is more than clear that the Bush Administration saw what it wanted to see in the pre-war intelligence. Nobody is denying that Kim is pursuing or has achieved nuclear capabilities. It is plain as day. Kind of like Bush's inability to deal with him.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Oct 18, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Festus,
That clip is so awesome. I've never seen it before. Thanks for the link.
The press is so f*#ked. Did you read the stuff about Judy Miller in this weeks NY Times? GWB just used her and the Times as their mouth piece?
20 odd years ago was a great article in Harper's Magazine entitled "The Myth of the Adversary Press." The tenant of the article was that the press can't be adversarial by definition because the only source of their information is the people and institutions that they report on.
I was a journalist in college and the thing you learn immediately is that whenever you interview someone they're telling you whatever they're telling you to advance an agenda.
Kim
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426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
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Oct 18, 2005 - 08:10pm PT
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Actually, FT, the rape testimony comes from Sy Hersh, no ACLU lawyer he.
You know...the My Lai guy.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 12:52am PT
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fattrad,
The guys on the scene, Hans Blix and company, said there was no problem in Iraq. Yet they were ignored. Spin that, amigo.
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Blight
Social climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 05:37am PT
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Whoa.
There are STILL people who believe there were WMDs in Iraq? The inspectors say there weren't any. Intelligence says there weren't any. The soldiers on the ground say there weren't any. Even your own GOVERNMENT says there weren't any.
And yet guys like Fattrad still believe there were?
That's amazing.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 19, 2005 - 10:31am PT
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'Belief' and vague, generalized soliloquy are what allow "beautiful minds" to be, well... beautiful. Championing the unspoken, weighing in with vast personally privelaged detail, pouncing the seemingly required patriarchal coat tails, or just jumping back on the fence when the inquiry gets more specific and the detail gets a little fuzzy, all serve as obsfucation for a transparent 'belief' system very much bereft of any real conviction. Fraudulent as it seems, all highly informative and entertaining. Enjoy!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 12:06pm PT
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fattrad,
We (the west) gave the middle east a complete restructuring in 1918. Now you say we need to restructure our restructuring?
Why do you think we'll do a better job now than we did then?
How about we mind our own business, and let those in the middle east do their own restructuring? If we had done that in 1918, I doubt we'd have these problems today.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
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Kim's claims are only as good as Saddam's.
Uh... you need to pay a little closer attention to that, I think. It was well-accepted even before they announced it that they had a couple of nuclear bombs. Nobody's arguing with it now.
Additionoally, the IAEA did indeed find evidence of it. That's why they inspectors were booted and NK withdrew from the NPT.
As far as I Iraq, Mossad is hardly someone to trust. They would gladly lie to get us to take out an enemy. The CIA most definitely did *not* have any proof, 'cuz if they did you *know* bush would have plastered it all over the news. Oh yeah, and the IAEA found nothing, despite being quite good at that sort of thing.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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Forest,
Facts are worthless things, according to the neocons.
Their inspiration comes from one of their foremost philosophical ancestors: Hermann Goering.
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 19, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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"No one has seen these N.Korea nukes.."
Not according to State Department spokesman Richard Boucher,
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june03/nkorea.html
Or,
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/
Or,
"And we signed an agreement with North Korea that my administration found out was not being honored by the North Koreans,..." President G.W. Bush
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1064
a pickin and a choosin hey
PS
In the interim, Bush used his January 2002 State of the Union address to criticize North Korea for "arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction while starving its citizens" and, along with Iraq and Iran, comprising an "axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world." The administration also released a National Security Strategy in September of that year, which emphasized pre-emptive attacks against countries with "weapons of mass destruction," explicitly mentioning North Korea as such a state.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 01:32pm PT
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fattrad,
Nice attempt to turn around the argument! But it won't work. Your side is the one picking and choosing. Whatever Chalabi fed, you guys ate it up, while ignoring Hans Blix. Why? Chalabi said what W. wanted to hear. The White House even committed treason to keep the truth from getting out.
And why do you think restructuring the middle east to what we want will work any better now than it did in 1918?
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