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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 29, 2009 - 12:17pm PT
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So the Nutty Putty Cave
is now going to be known as
the Tomb of John Jones.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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The reports on this tragedy suggest that this caver died from anchor failure.
They also suggest that this individual dropped about 12 feet into the crack when the anchor failed. I would think this would lodge him much tighter than his original crawl would have.
They go on to explain that he begain having trouble breathing after the anchor failure and drop.
From the pictures available I saw what may be a bolt but no redundancy in the anchor set up.
Condolences to his family. He has my hope for his children to have healthy and happy lives. My thoughts are with them.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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That biner may be a locker, but agreed, that does look like a single point anchor
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, didn't mean to be insensitive. It is a sad event.
Still I worry about the precedent of only permitting adventure that is deemed safe by virtue of being a yet fatality free location.
Pretty soon we won't be left with much.
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troutboy
Trad climber
Newark, DE
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Just a note from someone who's been there, done that...
Imagine you have a victim with trouble breathing, possibly on the verge of hypothermia (i.e, time is of the essence). You need to place several bolts for rebelays because the pulley system you require snakes through 100 feet or more of body tight twists and bends.
Now imagine you are on your stomach, with only a few inches on each side and you need to hand drill those bolts where it's so tight you can barely move, cannot turn around, and can only get a 1/3 hammer swing.
Also, it might be cold, wet and muddy (although I understand this cave is particularly warm).
It might be impossible to place 2 bolts at each rebelay. That picture may not be the primary anchor, don't know. And although it appears as if there was some headroom in that pic, it might be deceiving. There may well be much less room than it seems for drilling/rigging.
Just sayin' that under these circumstances, placing 2 bolts at each rebelay is not something you have the time (or ability) to do.
The men and women involved in that rescue go through specialized cave rescue training. They were not fireman and police trying to wing it. They are quite capable of performing complex rescue and rigging techniques and if they could have backed up the anchor (had the time, tools, or working space) they would have.
Please keep this in mind before criticizing their efforts and anchors. I've worked in cave rescues before. I know these people, or others like them (not exactly sure of all persons called out). I have no doubt these folks gave 110 % to get this man out.
Thanks
TS
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jstan
climber
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As one who has done a little of both climbing and caving I think we need to listen to TS above. We have had a number of climbing fatalities with regards to which the people on ST have been extremely circumspect about not trying to second guess what happened, all without real information. The logic for doing the same here is compelling.
To those worried about access issues, according to the news report the NSS was active in the management of this cave. As a former member years ago, I think you can assume that organization will try to represent cavers' interests as needed. People interested in that aspect might best communicate directly with the NSS.
There can't be any question the problems facing this rescue will be examined as an opportunity to improve. Those here who have not caved need to realize the topology of a passage restricts what can be done in an extraction orders of magnitude more severely than as happens on a mountain rescue. Especially so now that helicopters have become routinely available.
This most assuredly will be debriefed and the results made available. We need to put down our engineering hats and allow practiced persons to do their work.
Edit:
I am not speaking with regards to any of the posts to date. We are all affected by this and we should be just as concerned as we are.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I wasn't criticizing the rescue efforts. The rescue folks know far more about what they did then we do. I'm sure they are distraught over the outcome. There is no reason to try unless you really want to help, so you know their hearts are in the right place.
Like you say, time is always a factor, and in this case, space might have been too.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Hand drill? Any reasonable rescue would use a battery powered hammer drill (with a right angle if they exist) to buzz several big bolts in where needed in those tight spaces.
Edit: They even had air powered tools: "Rescuers chipped away with air-powered tools in a narrow tunnel Wednesday to free a man trapped upside down about 150 feet below ground in a popular Utah cave."
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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John Jones' brother Spencer Jones of San Francisco told the Associated Press, "We all were very optimistic and hopeful. But it became increasingly clear last night after he got re-stuck that there weren't very many options left. We thought he was in the clear and then when we got the news that he had slipped again. That's when we started to get scared."
sad indeed...
Do not squeeze into any passage that you cannot easily squeeze out of!!!
rules to live by
They made the effort:
After Mr. Jones was stuck, cave rescuers were called to free the 6-foot, 190-pound man. The rescue team, which numbered as many as 50 people, placed bolt anchors in the cave roof for a pulley system, attached ropes to him, and used power tools to widen the tunnel. They were able to raise him 12 feet and give him food and water before the rock that one of the pulley bolts was placed in broke, causing the anchor to fail, and dropped him tightly back into the hole. His physical condition then worsened as he had difficulty breathing and drifted in and out of consciousness. Rescuers sang songs to him to keep his spirits up.
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Stanley Hassinger
climber
Eastern US
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My condolences to Mr. Jones' family. A truly sad event that must be excruciating to bear.
A few thoughts:
The climbing community has left many climbers on Everest after they've passed away on route, and yet it remains a huge climbing destination. I suppose the incredible demand for Everest by a small but well equipped contingent among us keeps the question of its closure from even arising. But still, it's worth comparing the two.
I'd really like to know what the anchor failure involved. What was the set-up and what exactly caused the failure? I hesitate to draw any conclusions on the basis of a brief media report. If there were multiple pieces and only one failed, and the anchor was redundant, then it seems unlikely a fall of 12 feet would result. The media report made it seem like there were multiple bolts and only one failed, but who knows.
Stanley
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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From CaveChat.org
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&p=78917&hilit=+john+jones+#p78917
"Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave
Postby jaa45993 » Nov 26, 2009 1:30 pm
Hi everyone. Bonny and I spent all day yesterday at this rescue now turned recovery. As you can tell from the news, it was a frustrating, emotionally taxing ordeal for all involved.
I am not an official spokesperson for the rescue, nor a member of the command team, so my comments should be taken just as the impressions of one of the team members.
I was in the cave for about 12 hours yesterday as part of the effort. There were many ups and downs, a lot of heroic effort, and much determination. I would like to commend the sherriffs, fire teams, and county SAR for working so well with the cavers that were there. Cavers were recognized as vital, integral members of the team. Only small cavers could actually get near John. He got himself into a truly horrible situation, and not even everyone's best effort was enough to free him.
The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.
While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us.
Sympathy and prayers go out to his family."
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Thank you for a more factual report cliffhanger.
Obviously, it is quite different than the first media accounts.
It sounds like this was a heroic effort by many people.
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Stanley Hassinger
climber
Eastern US
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Cliffhanger - thanks a bunch for the detailed update. I can't imagine what it must have been like for all involved, especially the patient. Geez. It sure sounds like everything that could be done was done.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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From the NSS Forum post linked above:
Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave
by jaa45993 » Nov 26, 2009 1:30 pm
Hi everyone. Bonny and I spent all day yesterday at this rescue now turned recovery. As you can tell from the news, it was a frustrating, emotionally taxing ordeal for all involved.
I am not an official spokesperson for the rescue, nor a member of the command team, so my comments should be taken just as the impressions of one of the team members.
I was in the cave for about 12 hours yesterday as part of the effort. There were many ups and downs, a lot of heroic effort, and much determination. I would like to commend the sherriffs, fire teams, and county SAR for working so well with the cavers that were there. Cavers were recognized as vital, integral members of the team. Only small cavers could actually get near John. He got himself into a truly horrible situation, and not even everyone's best effort was enough to free him.
The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.
While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us.
Sympathy and prayers go out to his family.
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
jaa45993
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
I'm leaving Thursday morning for a four-day underground camp in Roppel Cave. I'll be careful!
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jstan
climber
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Lois:
One of the reports said access to the gated and locked cave was managed by the National Speleological Society(NSS), by agreement with the responsible persons. The NSS is an association of people who cave. I myself joined in 1959. Such arrangements are not unusual.
The description of the pulley system indicates the passage was nowhere near line of sight so the amount of engineering they had to do was huge. Even when a passage is straight it is likely to be essential that the rescuee is conscious and assisting. It also meant the force on bolts at the outside corners was directly out and at about right angles to the surface of the rock. The worst possible condition and it is not clear how much would be gained using redundant bolts. The fact a rescuer was hit by the pulley shows they had someone at the feet assisting.
Depending upon the size of the passage and its surface topology with a person of that size what they were trying to do could quite easily have been literally impossible.
This situation was not terribly different from that that existed in Sand Cave back in 1925. There the caver Floyd Collins had used dynamite to punch through. On the way back he dislodged a rock trapping his foot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Collins
The time I thought I heard sounds of a storm and worried we might be trapped by rising water I was caving with a youngster who worked as a guide in a commercial cave. When we told his parents about the incident his mother had the biggest smile I ever saw when she said she expected "we skeddaled out of there as fast as we could."
Which was exactly what we had done.
The passages can be huge and you find yourself walking down a steambed as easily as you would out of doors. Some of the caves in Indiana were like that and it is quite a pleasant way of exploring. Some get enthused about the tight places the same way climbers do when they start mumbling numbers. In both cases it really is kind of foolish and is not really what it is all about.
PS:
Someone give Lois a base jumping link. Here's one.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5377317n
Chris's videos must be around here someplace.
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jstan
climber
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You need to screen off their entry points to your overhead. You can catch some nasty stuff from bats. Histoplasmosis or some such.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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John,
I recall that you had a caving background too but I don't think we discussed Hell Hole -- it is quite the impressive experience dropping into that. Upstate NY with near-sump = McFail's Hole! I first went through there when I was 13 I think.
When I was back East in October, I dropped by to see an old friend in Troy. You know a caver named Chuck Porter? 6'3" or 4" and slim as a rail and one of the nicest guys you can meet - taught geology at RPI. He showed me a recent map of McFail's Hole; I think they've opened up to several miles now.
Going through the "duck-under" was one of the scariest things I ever did. The kid ahead of me yanked his carbide lamp underwater because he was shivering so hard in the cold water; I was at the lowest spot with my face turned sideways to stay in contact with air; I was freezing and somewhat terrified! My buddy wouldn't move forward without more light. Between spasdic gulps of air I would say in a high, squeaky voice "Move!" and he'd reply "I can't SEE!" This went back and forth a number of times until I couldn't take it any more so I pulled myself underwater and pushed off for the other side - went through his legs like a seal and coasted along until I could no longer hold my breath - at which point I realized that I couldn't be sure whether I would come up to air or solid rock - I said "self, you are stupid" and shot up to the surface like a shark in the middle of the pool on the other side, scaring the bejesus out of the guy who was standing there never considering that something large would leap out of such a forsaken pond. The tough thing was then knowing that I'd have to go back through it again in order to get out of there. Adventure rules!
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enjoimx
Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
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Soo stupid that they are closing the cave. And I found it hard to believe that his body "couldnt" be removed. They just didnt try hard enough or hire the right people to remove it.
Too bad though. Hope his family is ok.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Carbide lights rule. They're much more reliable than electric.
I was a member of the NSS back in Indiana and have a pretty low number, but not as low as jstan's. I never ran into the issue rokjox talks about, we didn't need anybody's permission to cave. Except for the landowner, of course.
Cavers are secretive about caves. Vandalism exacts a heavy toll and the fewer people that know about them the better.
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