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sprout
Trad climber
clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 28, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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This is only slightly climbing related as we like to play hard and in various sports. Still, its sad to see and hear about.
News story here
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ninjah
Big Wall climber
a van down by the river
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Nov 28, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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that is really messed up, so sad ! my thoughts go out to his family!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 28, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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Very sad. Apparently they were close to pulling him out when a bolt holding the hoist failed and he slipped back down.
Apparently the family and the authorities have requested that the body be left in place and the cave closed. I have mixed feelings about this. It's a popular moderate cave that introduces a lot of folks to being underground. The guy who died was a moderately experienced caver, I wonder if he would agree that his bad luck should shut things down for others.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Nov 28, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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I have to disagree with the family as well. While his passing is sad, shutting down the wilderness is not the solution.
Can you imagine what would happen if they closed off every area hikers, climbers, and your average tourist meets an unfortunate end was the solution?
We can't keep the world safe from people. Hell, it's more dangerous in the cities by a long shot.
Driven down the freeway lately?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Seems to me this is a decision for the property owners, the authorities, and the family. I caved for three or four years and am loath to interject myself in such matters.
At the end I was scraping my right ear along freshly washed gravel going through a narrow channel when it occurred to me it could start raining outside and I would never know it. Actually I was more into the rope work than the exploration anyway. Hell hole in WV was a trip. You are going down a shaft maybe eight feet in diameter and then go through the ceiling of a huge room. Suddenly you can't see anything. Just black everywhere. We used manila prussicks going back up BITD. That was fun. We used to go down someone else's grotty old rope. And they were grotty.
A grotty rope then was laid nylon had mud all over it, was thinner in some places than in others with some fuzz. But otherwise they were well treated. Kept protected in the trunk of a car next to the spare can of gasolene.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ruby Range
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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Grotty?
Please define this term. Thank You.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Bad precedent.
No matter how well intentioned.
How many of the routes I put up would be closed under this rationale?
Four I know of. Good routes!!
I heard the news reports about how "experienced" he was.
You always hear this crap from the friends.
"He's been doing this for years" yeah right, weekend warrior wannabe self-proclaimed expert.
Its a tragedy, but why do all the more competent cavers who've used that cave for a half century have to be denied?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Probably ought to close down all the hospitals too. Lots of people have died there.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 28, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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When a climber dies we get all careful about what we say here. Eh?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 28, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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More detailed report here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34180264
Wow, that's really sad. While getting stuck when you cave does happen, you can always get yourself unstuck. This type of accident is really quite unusual in caves.
It's reminiscent of the death of Neil Moss in Peak Cavern in England years ago. He was entombed in the cave - they couldn't get him out of the vertical slot, and they poured concrete over him. I don't believe the cave is closed, however.
So to die by getting stuck, and then not being able to even retrieve the body, is both tragic and rare. The decision to leave his body in the cave, and to close the cave, was unanimous.
Condolences to his family.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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That's pretty lame to close the cave because one person died. I guess we should just remove the word 'risk' from the dictionary as well.
Bruce
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 29, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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How about banning the search and rescue clowns who can't build a fail-safe anchor instead of closing the cave?
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Nov 29, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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The cave hosted 5,000 to 10,000 visitors per year until 2006
rescuers have been called to the cave five times in the last 10 years.
So 5 incidents in 50,000-100,000 visits is too dangerous? .01-.02% is too high a risk? Sounds like the decision to close the cave was emotionally driven, rushed, and not backed up by supporting evidence.
I am sure someone who enjoyed caving would want his legacy to be preventing others from caving. If I die climbing, please close El Cap.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 07:39am PT
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"How about banning the search and rescue clowns who can't build a fail-safe anchor instead of closing the cave?"
I wouldn't be so quick to blame them for the anchor failure. Have you been down there and inspected the rock quality? There well could be very lousy rock for anchors and the position of the person could have put odd forces on the system.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:00am PT
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hey there all... say:
my condolences to the family... this was very sad... :(
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 29, 2009 - 09:50am PT
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rlf, none of us can know all the details of the rigging challenge this accident presented. However, the one picture available online shows a block and tackle, with a non locking carabiner, on a single bolt. Not cool. Also, there appears to be a crack right next to the bolt.
The pic I'm talking about is half way down in this article.
http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/11/28/utah-caver-dies-after-becoming-stuck.htm
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:05am PT
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The decision to close the cave is strange, and does not carry much precedent. What surprises me is that the decision was unanimous among everyone, so there must be [a] reason[s] for everyone to agree, although I can't imagine what.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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There ARE people in this state capable placing stout anchors in soft rock,...
(ahem,.. cough, cough)
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:27am PT
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Dropline, I didn't see this particular article. I stand corrected. That indeed does look like a sketchy set up. I wonder if they were unable to get a second bolt in due to lack of space or what.
Thanks for the correction.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 29, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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BITD everyone wanted to go into Schoolhouse, I certainly did. I may have, but I just don't remember. Julius Caesar was running for office so I may have had to stay home and vote that weekend. It was during those days that I first came to appreciate West Virginia. There was one cave in NY with a near sump I could just get through as my upper nostril filled with water. Can't remember the name of it for some reason. Using stove pipe I made devices for hauling dirt out of a filled passage to see if we could extend that cave. When the only place to put the dirt was the sump we had used to get there, for some reason, I decided to stop digging.
If people would only think for a minute we might have been able to avoid an unseemly discussion here and would also have been able to have everything we wish. Just thinking ahead and being solicitous toward the grieving is what is called for.
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