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MH2
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Ever since around 1975 when I saw someone at Devil's Lake walk up to Congratulations, a 5.9 crack, and aid it on nuts, I have thought of aid climbers as free-thinkers, if not anarchists. The guy just did what he wanted to do and no people or rock got hurt.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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When it comes to Anarchy, ethics along with self responsibility for ones actions would be very important. We are responsible of not over driving our pins and not adding bolts and holes to ease our fear of falling or the notion one might have to retreat. Like Tommy said "i am not going to draw a circle around me" or did he say a box? Keeping a open artistic mind to create something that's cool, special, and well thought out. Not just getting to point A to point B. Maybe get to point A sliding by Point B to barely get to Point D while getting to point C was out of the question.
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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Nov 26, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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Rational anarchy is the question to your answer.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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Is aid climbing a sort of anarchy?
no, its a rock climbing skill...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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My experience
1. Aid climbing can be a somewhat contrived game. People have egos, and so to feel their climbing is special, they have to make up rules that suit them about this game and fight with others who have their own ideas. We want to be heros to ourselves, or at least morally right.
2. Aid climbing often attracts people who want to numb the pain of life with the more intense pain and anxiety of the wall, which at least they can control better or accept voluntarily. These folks can be intense and vent their pent emotions on folks who reflect their demons.
as i wrote on the WOS thread
"Almost any aid climb that's been around 20 years that I've been on has had endless damage from repeated nailing, heading and whatnot.
Get over it. People probably should have stayed off El Cap altogether until 1990 if you really care about preserving grains of granite and climbing for future generations. What if the Shield headwall was only climbed starting in 2006 with the cleanest possible gear?
Then El Cap would be like much of Tuolumne, mandatory freeclimbing and leadouts so many routes are only accessible by the elite.
As soon as an aid climb starts getting ascents, it starts changing and getting hammered here and there. Zodiac was clean and then purists cleaned the fixed stuff and we're hammering on it again
WTF? It's a weird game and mostly in our minds. There are tons of EL Cap routes that aren't much worth doing, or that almost never get done, and nobody cares.
WHich makes this a senseless ego circus"
Of course, climbers have often managed to make our disagreements on the game into an ego circus
Best to face our demons and enjoy our climbing
Peace
Karl
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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Rick d
"I can clean aid anything you can free."
You wanna make a little wager on that one ? ? ?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Mare Infinitum
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Nov 26, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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Well, I'm from Arkansas, originally, So that makes me "an Arky".
Yeah, yeah, I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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So anarchy = "absence or denial of any authority or established order" according to Warbler.
So aid climbing must the have "authority or established order" ?
Am I blowing it?
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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RE:
"Denial of authority is where climbing becomes anarchistic
Think Warren Harding."
yes, and the expression of Outrage* directed toward real
or percieved unfair oppression - the oppressors create
their own "dilemma" - their own "anarchy".
eg:
"All oppression creates a state of war"
Simone de Beauvoir
*"Denial of authority" through opposing action.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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If "Chief Tenaya" banned all aid climbing in Yosemite would people become "Anarchists"?
He don't want anyone to pound any sh'it into the sacred rocks .....
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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the Worn out Slander thread
Hahaha
Kevin, you ever see that formation in Tenaya Canyon that resembles the Chief.
I had a copy of that photo somewhere and he appears when the sun and the shadows are correct.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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"Denial of authority is where climbing becomes anarchistic.... Think Warren Harding."
Yeah, and as soon as there are "rules" someone will arise to enforce them. Harding had his Robbins, and there are Robbins wannabes even today.
Some even attempt to elevate the "rules" to the level of "ethics," which is, of course, an odd move. Once the "rules" become "ethics," you need not only enforcers but priests and/or philosophers (noooooo!) to define things.
Or, you can just invest your faith in a few elite, subvert your autonomy there, and go mooing off happily into the sunset.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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It's anarchy of self to keep going when you should be in the Deli!
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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So if aid climbing is anarchy then anarchy becomes authority?
Or am I being an idiot with that hypothesis?
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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Thanks Rik
You still have your brilliant mind .....
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
. . . not !
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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"Anyways it seems like there really are no real rules on what you can and can not do?"
On a cartoon I was watching , the dude pulled down on a rope to haul himself all the way up the side of a cliff .
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 27, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Yes Warner. Like the joke "I was president of my anarchy Club"
anarchy seems simple, everyone does what they please, no ethics,no kind of style, just go up there and to what you please. Maybe eventually, a sub group comes along and has ideas of how things should be conducted. And another group joins togather another idea of how things should be done. These two groups start arguing and have there agenda. all of sudden you have the nonbolters Vs. Bolters. Two governing bodys or say tribes pulling for there ownn agenda. and anarchy goes right out the door.....It goes to the part that humans are social creatures and intend to garther in groups depending what group depends on alot of different forces.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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getting back to this... reading the OP title literally is an interesting exercise and begs the question: what are the sorts of anarchy.
The word is from the Greek ἀναρχία which translates to "without ruler" I'd say that with Chouinard out of the business for decades, and Deucey out too, that there are no "rulers" out there... the gear makers who printed catalogs showing usage used to set the trend, and by default, the rules of the game.
FISH's site is still out there and very useful, but interestingly not mainstream (strangely)... I go there whenever I think I've caught the aid bug... fortunately my resistance to hard physical work is high.
But the Wikipedia has these four bulleted types of anarchy (I'll number them for discussion):
1) "No rulership or enforced authority."[1]
2) "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder."[2]
3) "A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."[3]
4) "Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."[4]
They all four have relevance to the OP but different nuances... and in someplace in the world at some time have been relevant to climbing...
My guess is that 4) is closest in spirit to Werner's OP, but 1) follows in a close second... The fact that the NPS doesn't want to have anything to do with us climbing (the better to limit their liability) makes 2) a policy issue in some parks... and then there is 3) which describes our ideal climber community, I think...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 27, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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At its best aid climbing should be a sort of "free climbing via prosthesis".
The fact that, when people resort to aid any sort of consensus about what is kosher is thrown out of the window, suggests that aid climbing is anarchy, but pitons don't scar cracks, CLIMBERS scar cracks.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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werner - anarchy suggests no rule, no order, no law....
Aid climbing, in my outside opinion is nothing but rules, order, and laws...
so, the answer is "no"... aid climbing is not a sort of anarchy
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