Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
|
There is no God and no miracles.
That's just the way it is!
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
|
Yeah for sure...the birth of my kids! But I believed before that, that was the icing on the cake though.
Peace
|
|
d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
|
no.
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
|
"I heard an audible "No", which I thought came from the back seat of my car"
And yet you will call someone insane when they tell you that they heard God tell them to drive a plane into a building or to kill their kids or to jump from a moving car, etc... Why is it that you heard God but anyone who hears something you don't personally like is just crazy? Delusion of grandeur? Ego?
I have yet to see something that I think cannot be explained by other natural phenomena. Either everything in the universe is a miracle or nothing is. We each make our own choice about which we prefer.
Dave
|
|
dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
|
chip-
thanks for the response. If the said driver didn't want to listen then why wouldn't god then take contriol of the situation?
Do you believe that god is all loving? Why did he protect you and not the driver? Is it because you are a beleiver and the driver is not?
|
|
nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
|
One time at a bowling alley, I asked for the Lord's help. I envisioned a golden light from my ball, going down the alley, to the right of the lead pin and then envisioned all the pins falling over.
I got a strike.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
|
Hey Ghost, I hesitate to answer such a question on the taco because the answer is very involved and few take the time or energy to try and understand what I am saying without first reacting with anger. I have answered this question in the past and have had scorn heaped on me. I believe that you are a person who is willing to respect another's opinion or understanding, so I will attempt another brief answer. Though you must understand that the answer is not simple and many many books could be written and have been written to address just such questions. But I will give this a go, because it is kind of fun to see if I can create a relatively short answer. oh man.. haha.
Why does God let children starve?
This is really a complicated question and has many background issues. The first is probably, why are we here? If we are just here to have fun, and God created us that way, then why doesn't he save us when we have a problem?
I am going to try a short cut answer because normally to understand this, it might require multiple books. So please forgive me if I don't cover all the issues.
The first thing to understand is that we are here to become more of God. How is this possible? Well that is a very esoteric line of thought and would take whole books to explain, so I am going to ask you to accept, for the sake of understanding, that this is true.
God created us as children, meaning we are to grow in maturity and become equals with god. ( this one will blow some christians minds.. haha )
God created the earth as a school room. Yet in the beginning this school room was benign. No physical death, no need to look for food or shelter or even clothing. Almost a dirtbags dream.. eh. This classroom also came equipped with a teacher to help us learn and a very safe environment.
There were rules to help us learn, and rules to keep us from harm. One such rule found in the bible was to not eat of the tree of knowledge. Now that sounds crazy, but is really just a symbol for a state of consciousness that creates opposites in consciousness. Love/hate, Joy/despair and so forth. Once again this is a very short answer. The main one it creates is Oneness/separation.
Now one of the rules of the school, to teach us what our choices really mean, was that we had dominion in this world and would thus reap what we sow. If we didn't reap what we sow, then we might never learn. There was a teacher to help us undo what we created, but the story in Genesis is about how we turned away from the teacher. We chose fear.
Please try to understand that this is not really a one time thing, but more of a cascading effect where we chose more and more not to listen to the teacher who was warning us we were heading to suffering.
Eventually we chose our own way enough times, that the rules of Karma came into effect and we lost contact with our teacher. Not because our teacher didn't want to help us, but because we had, either in stubborness or fear, denied the teacher enough that the only way we could learn was from our mistakes. Imagine a teenager who has turned 18. You have given him every help you can, but he insists on drinking and doing drugs. You can't keep forcing him, so eventually you give him his head. He wants to leave this safe place where he is given his food and his housing. If only he will follow some basic rules and learn the things he needs to learn so that he can be a mature responsible adult, he could stay. Now please don't use this analogy to say, but looked at all the screwed up homes. In this analogy, the parents are good and only have the best wishes for the child, even helping the child learn courage by encouraging great things like climbing. haha..
Now you need a bit more background.
We are made in god's image. What does this mean? It means that we have free will to create what we want. Plus The power to create what we want, and the space and time to do it in. Now we don't have the fullness of god's power as we are meant to grow into that and learn what it really means to have and use that power. If we had God's full power, then this world wouldn't last beyond the first persons temper tantrum. We would have to keep recreating this place over and over with no growth possible. So we don't have God's full power. We can be given it, but we have to earn it.
Going back to why babies starve? The next thing that you have to understand, or at least accept for sake of argument, is that we do not have just one physical lifetime. We reincarnate and we bring with us all the baggage that we had in the last lifetime. This creates all sorts of dynamics because how can a baby pay back its karma if it dies before it has a chance to do anything? Well, part of its karma may be paid back by helping the world see its callousness. There is plenty in this world, such that no baby needs to starve, yet because of greed and avarice, babies starve. Greed and avarice that the baby likely had in a previous life and so contributed to their own condition.
Because of karma from past lives, babies are born with health problems, babies are born into homes that are cruel and empty, and babies starve. All sorts of things happen because of past life karma.
This can sound mean. Wow, we screw up once and god smacks us down with karma. But the reality is that we did not just screw up once. Look at overweight people. They didn't just overeat once. They overate over and over and over again. ( please understand that this is a very simplistic answer and that there are many background issues besides just choosing to eat too much ) This is just an example of how karma works. You can choose to listen to the teachers who tell you not to eat, or you can follow your lust and eat everything in sight. Lust which was created out the tree of knowledge, because in the spiritual realm, there is no lust.
So why even have karma? Well, without karma, many people would go on and on forever creating meaner and meaner things. They would not learn, as they have rejected love as a way to learn, and so there are not reasons left, unless they reap what they sow, which is karma. So karma exists as a last resort to help us learn.
The other question that exists is "why have a tree of knowledge"? Well, god knows everything, and if we are to become god, then we have to have access to everything, yet given too soon, before a person has full discernment, it can be a mistake to have this knowledge. Yet the knowledge exists, and eventually we have to learn what it means. We weren't given a gun when we were a three year old. Access to the tree of knowledge comes after a certain maturity level. Much like we give kids a .22 to plink with when they show a certain maturity level. There was no one time thing, it was a process of choosing to go against the advice of our parent/teacher.
The world is a mirror to help us see what we really believe, and to show us the affects of those beliefs.
This post is a very simplistic answer to the question, and leaves out many subjects, so let the scorn begin. I'm not here talking about you ghost, as you have always been respectful. So please accept that I mean only respect towards you. I just understand that the taco is a free for all and so much scorn can be heaped, that it deflects the conversation, and thus few take the time or energy to really try and understand what I am saying. They see one thing they don't like, and off they go with their anger. I am learning not to answer those people, as it just leads to a circle of argument. I do understand that I have in the past argued with people over and over, I am learning not to, as it serves no good purpose, but instead increases anger. Your basic, you reap what you sow.. haha. again. I am not laughing at you, but at my own foibles.
I hope that this helps you understand.
John
|
|
Chip
Trad climber
Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
|
Dave g.-
I appreciate the response as well. Best as I can tell, God doesn't intervene by doing anything physical. Any influence seems to be through a tug of the heart, a thought you might not have come up with on your own, something you read, another person who is influenced to help, etc. That is the deal with free will, which we have all been given.
To answer a previous question, I don't think someone is crazy because they say God told tham to do something. I think they are crazy if they tell me God told them to do something "un-Godly", like hurt others. Whether you believe in it or not, the Bible has been a time tested guide for many millions and becoming fluent in it may be the only way to know for yourself whether someone is doing un-Godly things. That is why literacy was so suppressed through the dark ages and greatly undermined the authority of some church/government officials when Bibles and literacy became more common. Today, we see a shrinkage of all the small newspapers but blogging has increased so that there remains some pretty good checks on authority.
Folks, that is way more of my beliefs than I've talked about in years. Now I've gotta work, 'cause God doesn't make us stronger by putting money in our pockets.
As Karl says, Peace
|
|
corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
|
Climbed/rapped the central pillar of Frenzy and
we were just packing up when 3 attractive female climbers
come along the base looking to do it.
Miracle of the right place at the right time.
|
|
elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
|
John..... your explanation reads like a bunch of stuff made up by someone who has no clue and is willing to accept the most preposterous, illogical and unproven crap to find comfort from.... anything to keep from dealing with the real universe. Of course, you have the right to believe in all the ignorance and superstition you wish, but I got to tell you Bro... from a rational perspective... your explanation makes you sound like a fool.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
|
Thats cool Tom, you are free to believe what you want. I respectfully disagree with you. I do still love your pics and your reports, so maybe not a complete fool. eh?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
|
"There is no God and no miracles.
That's just the way it is!"
Yep.
You make your own reality- sometimes you luck out and dodge a bullet, sometimes sh#t happens.
Some people believe that if you beat on a rock with a stick at exactly the right time, it will make the sun come up. I'm cool with people believing such Krap® as long as they don't run for POTUS.
|
|
burntheman
Trad climber
slt
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
|
No. I am largely skeptical of a divine power because the origins of religion/god(s) are so mixed up. David Hume's The Natural History Of Religion is a must read.
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/mickelsen/texts/Hume-Nat%20Hist%20Rel.txt
INTRODUCTION
As every enquiry, which regards religion, is of the utmost
importance, there are two questions in particular, which challenge
our attention, to wit, that concerning its foundation in reason, and
that concerning its origin in human nature. Happily, the first
question, which is the most important, admits of the most obvious,
at least, the clearest solution. The whole frame of nature bespeaks
an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious
reflection, suspend his belief a moment with regard to the primary
principles of genuine Theism and Religion. But the other question,
concerning the origin of religion in human nature, is exposed to
some more difficulty. The belief of invisible, intelligent power has
been very generally diffused over the human race, in all places and
in all ages; but it has neither perhaps been so universal as to
admit of no exception, nor has it been, in any degree, uniform in
the ideas, which it has suggested. Some nations have been
discovered, who entertained no sentiments of Religion, if travellers
and historians may be credited; and no two nations, and scarce any
two men, have ever agreed precisely in the same sentiments. It would
appear, therefore, that this preconception springs not from an
original instinct or primary impression of nature, such as gives
rise to self-love, affection between the sexes, love of progeny,
gratitude, resentment; since every instinct of this kind has been
found absolutely universal in all nations and ages, and has always a
precise determinate object, which it inflexibly pursues. The first
religious principles must be secondary; such as may easily be
perverted by various accidents and causes, and whose operation too,
in some cases, may, by an extraordinary concurrence of
circumstances, be altogether prevented. What those principles are,
which give rise to the original belief, and what those accidents and
causes are, which direct its operation, is the subject of our
present enquiry.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
|
John..... your explanation reads like a bunch of stuff made up by someone who has no clue and is willing to accept the most preposterous, illogical and unproven crap
Which may be true, but doesn't prove him wrong.
Right or wrong, however, John's post doesn't address the issue of how Christians reconcile their belief in a loving god with the horror that surrounds us in the world. Which includes not just children that starve, but children that are raped and tortured and vilely murdered. His post explains how he reconciles it, but reincarnation, which is the basis of his explanation, isn't any part of Christian theology. For Christians, payback for the sins of this life comes in the form of burning in Hell, not in the form of being brought back to this world as a baby and then starved to death.
So, any of you believers out there care to address the question of why a loving god would allow a child to be raped and tortured?
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
|
Why do you demand something called a miracle? Just go find yourself a witch doctor to blow you some smoke if that's what you want. Was Christ so called walking on water a miracle? Or is that just a trick? I'm not impressed by walking on water, I've seen better stuff in Cirque du Soleil. Why do you think God should make everything fair in your terms? He is acting over incomprehensible spans of time while we live but an instant. Life and death are part of this place and maybe it's our attitude towards them that need to change.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
|
You are right Ghost. I don't accept Christianity's current set of beliefs. The concept of reincarnation was an accepted belief during Jesus' time and was removed from accepted Christian theology during the 4th century. I believe that reincarnation is such an important concept to understand life, that If Jesus hadn't believed in reincarnation, he would have spoke out against it.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
|
"Climbed/rapped the central pillar of Frenzy and
we were just packing up when 3 attractive female climbers
come along the base looking to do it. "
But they climbed the pillar instead, while you hoofed it back to the car? Where's the beef?
unrelated
Science has found all kinds of laws regarding conservation of mass and energy, laws of thermodynamics and such. Actions have reactions.
Karma is the equivalent of these laws on another level. Everything we do reflects back on us sooner or later. If you look within yourself and review your life honestly, you may find meaning in how your life has mirrored what you held within
Peace
Karl
PS, regarding Jesus and reincarnation. He said himself "I was here before but you did not recognize me" Forget the verse numbers though
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
|
"So, any of you believers out there care to address the question of why a loving god would allow a child to be raped and tortured?"
I'm not a believer but I think it's called "free will".
The bigger question which is why does life feed on life in general. Why do we need to kill plants and animals to survive? Why didn't God come up with a better than way than murder?
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
|
dave goodwin- "hey-chip, if that was god talking to you and said "no" when an 18 wheeler blew through a red light. with all of god's power, don't you think it would have been easier for god to talk to the driver of the 18 wheeler"?
Perhaps God was talking to the driver of the 18 wheeler and He was saying "go ahead, continue to step on it fat-boy, I've had it with you, and if Chip hadn't listened to me today ya both would-a been dead"!
Maybe indirectly God was sending a message to the truck driver "slow down dude"...after all the Lord does work in mysterious way's"(Ben Franklin).
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Nov 18, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
|
Hi Binks, Originally we did not need to kill anything to survive. That is described in the story of the garden of eden. Our bodies could survive without food. Eating the fruit of a tree does not kill the tree, and could be done for pleasure. Murder and killing came out of separation from God because we could no longer get our sustenance from God and needed to take from others. The further we separate, the deeper we go into the need to kill to survive. Life today is much different then what God created. There was no disease, no suffering, no thorns, so animosity. None of these things.
God gave us dominion, and so we have created the mess you see, just as we create plants through genetics, thinking we are doing good when likely we are creating the next great famine, as we do away with diversity. There is more to life then what you see with your eyes. History is vast.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!