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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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Tradman, who would want to rap off those? At least be putting rings on your setups. Who wants to be leaving draws all the time. Having lower offs makes a climbing area so much more fun.
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jimbo
climber
North Cascades
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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"who would want to rap off those?"
Ummm...those Metolius RAP hangers are meant to rap off of.
And you shouldn't be lowering off of any permanent anchor. Wear out your own gear.
Cheers.
Jimbo
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Jaybro, you got a picture of one? I don't think I do...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Drinker. those are made for rapping. They look like oversized reguler bolt hangers and are about the thickness of rap rings. funny thing is that ocasionaly some noob sport climber leaves draws on them. booty;)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 19, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Until the Mussy Hooks become stainless, I'll go with these.
Fixe Stainless sport hangers. For belays with a lot of crap happening, they're is a lot of places to clip off that won't disturb the eventual rap you want to do.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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yeah but those cost a fortune!
But they are exactly what I'm trying to duplicate.
Kong has some stuff for sale that are similar, but only $4.40.
But you have to then add the bolt, hanger, and chain/lap link.
Still, half as much. You just have to show a little hustle.
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Nov 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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I think the best option is to just put carabiners on the end of chains. Lower through em, abuse em, whatever. When they look worn someone can just throw a new one on. Simple, cheap, why do anything else?
Alex
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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For unmitigated BEEF it is hard to beat the Space Station.
I designed and fabricated several of these for the stated purpose of refitting Space Babble and setting up a descent line down from the Kor-Beck on Middle Rock. Featuring welded 1/2" stainless steel chain with an added half link for plenty of wear life, these are intended for remote belay/rappel anchors.
Despite some extensive dialog on the ST and contacting Clint specifically asking him to leave the retrofit for Kevin Worral and I to set up, he just couldn't help himself and so everybody gets the same old tired Fixe ring box set-up and scrawny 5/16" diameter bolts instead of one 3/8" and one 1/2" diameter which considering the amount of rockfall on Middle would have been much better. WTF Clint?!? I would have sent them for you to install if you had even bothered to communicate your overeager intentions.
My BEEF aside, this sort of welded 1/2" set-up without my custom Dolt Ear hangers should be the direction that long wearing remote anchors should be taking, IMO.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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At least there are new bolts and hardware on a seldom done valley route. Not exactly "Space Station Quality" without the extra Half-link and all....
Nice design by the way, are they for sale?
Mucci
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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That might be the first criticism I've read about Clint on this site. And for doing some public service no less.
WAY RAD, grossman.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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I have been making these for my own use but not for sale as the whole set-up would be pretty pricey. The chain portion is pretty easy to jig up and weld out of 1/2" stainless chain using the half links from cutting the shorter pieces that would otherwise be waste. You end up with a wear cross section that should last a very long time which beats the hell out of skinny chain if you are going to the trouble to do remote anchor work. The added return of low rust is worth the investment.
The other expense is the pin shackle or quick link which can be a bit expensive in 1/2" stainless which is why cutting the end link to allow the bolt hanger to slip on and then welding the gap closed is best as long as the hanger chosen has plenty of room for an addiional carabiner.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Steve, those look nice, but they won't line up with the original holes unless you get really lucky, and they look like they will collect debris. It's not worth drilling new holes just to use that setup.
It's kind of funny to call the sweet Fixe double-ring hangers a "tired" design - they are better than yours for clip in points, much more versatile as far as not having to drill new holes, and work fine with 3/8" or 1/2". Here's what they look like (this is the anchor on Friends in High Places, Tuolumne):
Calling 3/8" 5-pieces "scrawny" because they have a 5/16" core is pretty lame too - shear strength of over 7,000 lbs isn't scrawny. Rockfall can destroy anything, and considering how many tiny little 1/4" survived on MC for decades, it's not that much of a worry. And my elbow complains enough with 3/8", I for one am not drilling 1/2" in Valley granite with a hand drill!
ASCA rebolters take a lot of flack for no good reason - and just because you made up some Rohrer-style homemade beefy gear doesn't mean that you have a right to give rebolters a hard time. If you'd gone and replaced the stations before Clint got there, then he chopped your anchor and put a different one in, THEN you could give him flack!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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I have to agree with Greg. I don't see any huge advantage to Steve G's design and there as some disadvantages as well. Also, Clint has done a huge amount of rebolting work in the Valley and other places and other than hardware, does it all at his own expense and takes the time and effort to do it historically correctly. I don't understand Steve's attack on Clint. Clint certainly doesn't deserve that kind of treatment.
Bruce
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Pretty funny Steve had a name picked out for the rappel units.
I guess "Space Stations" are destined for a name change.
There is a nice TR about the rebolt here somewhere.....
Good on those guys for swooping in and hammering out Phase 3 of the "Space Project"
The force was with them it was...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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Fuk that.... let's get the PinBolt rolling again!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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Greg:
All I can say is, you and ASCA totally ROCK! I've told you this before and I meant it. I'm at least as impressed as I can be with anything. And of course everything you said is spot on accurate. I think those Fixe double ring anchors are the best design currently on the market. Stainless steel, mega strong, from an established company that can be trusted, fully redundant, commercially available, ease of placement, no issue with lining up holes, do not twist ropes, extra clip-in points, can replace lower ring with a quick-link or carabiner if worn...they are awesome!
Oh, I suppose I should point out for full disclosure that I am a corporate sponsor of ASCA...under Tom K. Michael, D.D.S., P.S.
Because, like I said, ASCA rocks!
I also think it was mega-cool of Clint to actually go up there and fix up Space Babble. I was amazed anybody has the time or motivation to actually do that! Sorry it took so long to say so, Clint...congratulations! Your TR on the thing was great.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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a knob the size of a basketball with a good lip
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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I would have a problem with the longevity of Steve G's "Space Station"--not in the bomberness of them, but not being (re)plated after the welding process invites quick rust and corrosion.
Maybe Steve (or Greg B) have some insight here, but I've never seen a non-plated weld last very long in the outdoor environs, when used for climbing anchors...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Props to Clint and Greg. I've had internet interaction with them only, but they've always been super helpful and from what I've seen they have contributed a lot to this dysfunkshunal climbing community. Thanks to you both! I've used ASCA stuff to rebolt entire crags, something that could not have happened had not people contributed. So props to all of you who have helped maintain a route, or who have put one up. Now everyone just hug and knock this crap off.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Nice to see innovation. Good stuff. Steve, do you think that the metal piece that is sticking up in the middle of the links you welded together might hinder the pull of a rap rope?
Also, what Mojede says: the bare steel by the weld will start rusting soon....and a replacement of the replacement would come sooner rather than later don't you think? Unless that's just weld discoloration on Stainless steel. Hmmmm. perhaps that is what we are looking at there, and not rust on steel.
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