Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
|
Does anyone remember the bit the comedian Sam Kinneson (sp) used to do as Jesus on the cross yelling at somebody to get a pair of pliers? Very funny though blasphemous to be sure.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
|
Wes,
Bush and "Them" didn't invent William Wallace. And Clinton "invented" the Black Hawk Down debacle in Somalia.
War is Hell.
I simply admire the best in men that comes from selfless sacrifice and both those stories, in all their pain, exemplify man at his best.........and worst.
Going to War in Iraq was heralded by Bush as the Christian thing to do in his mind. Problem with the system there, I agree.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
|
Trust me, "They" aint controlling me. You think you can guess who I voted for? You might be surprised.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
|
"When it comes to people living on a finite world with finite resources,"
Yes, if you believe that the world is finite, then you will experience it as finite. But even science reveals that it is not finite. How? The Sun is adding energy to the Earth at all times. Everything is energy, therefore nothing on this Earth is finite. We just don't know how to adequately use that energy. As for the Sun, science says that it will run out of energy one day, yet science does not know how it generates its energy. Science is only recently discovering that matter can disappear and reappear and can be guided by thought. If everything is energy, then matter is energy and thus energy can disappear and reappear. Study quantum physics to understand this.
The depths of the universe are not even barely understood by man. Science has only scratched at the surface. The universe is infinite. The Earth is infinite. Man is an infinite Being, though his time to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes is finite.
Science is not the antithesis of Spirituality. They can coexist, as long as one understands that Science is the search for Truth as is Spirituality. My experience of Life is my scientific experiment. My results are verifiable, though one would have to work for an extended time to verify them.
Believe what you want to Wes. I understand how you can rail against religion. I rail against it too, but God is not religion and to blame God for what man does through religion is unwise.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
|
"Is that what we are doing in the middle east, or Gitmo? Is that what the "Christian" right was doing when they referred to Obama as a Muslim terrorist? "
Yes, religion makes mistakes. It is a construct of man and is often guided by mans carnal mind.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:45pm PT
|
I told you that I might leave something important out. haha. Yes, God has consciousness and so does man.
|
|
Bamm_Bamm
Social climber
I'm lost, Please help me!!!
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
|
Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es?
You would think they would be able to demonstrate this new morality they claim to have.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
|
Dr,
How has Christianity changed? You say it changes daily.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
|
Weschrist, maybe I misunderstood you.
I thought you were referring to "They" the government, "They" the media, "They" big brother, "They" the religion....etc....
What did you mean?
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
|
The Tough Questions are the best ones and the only kind that lead to self examination.
"The unexamined life is one not worth living."
Plato
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
|
"Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es? "
Why are Christians always so ready with the names? Lighten up for "Christ's" sake.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
|
"Why is it that atheists are the only ones that can be as#@&%es?"
Come on Bambam, you can't really believe that atheists are the only Aholes out there. I am not an atheist and I have been an Ahole on more then one occasion.
Yes, its true. The magnificent, the wonderful, the wise John Moosie has been an Ahole. haha.. Shucks. now I have lost my Jesus101 badge. Dang..
Anyone have a Jesus101 badge that they would trade me. I have an extra "walk the old lady across the street" badge to trade with. I will even throw in a bobble head Jesus.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
|
DR. F said "So you christians have nothing. Jesus died and never came back is the only thing that can be proved."
So is it proof you demand? That's kind of a slippery slope for a worldview. Seems to me if you demand proof prior to engaging something of significance, you run the risk of a fairly mundane existence.
Do you need proof to trust a good friend?
Proof that you will not get rained on before heading up a route you really want to do?
Proof a book will be good before you read it?
Proof someone will never let you down before you love them?
Tough way to go.
I can't prove it. But this route is killer.
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
|
I never said you had to believe in Jesus, or that I was going to try to prove it to you. I just find it kind of a bummer when people want proof for these kinds of things. Maybe it was a bad set of analogies. I think we can all agree it comes down to faith.
I'm telling you. As an athiest/agnostic, you should really check out Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict. He was an athiest. The book isn't trying to make you a Christian. Its actually a pretty tough read. Its a breakdown of everything that never made sense to a very smart guy and admitted skeptic. I think you would dig it. It would be great conversation.
No lie, I'll buy you a copy and send it to you. I would love to hash it out with somebody like you who is asking tough questions. Its good for me to test my faith and have reason for what I believe.
By the way, have you done Eichorn's Pinnacle?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
|
For the proof seeking ones out there...there is plenty of proof that there are as#@&%es on both sides of the Religious question.
"The theory of energy is well understood, and works in mysterious ways, but god has to be more than some random pile of energy, he has to have some sort of consciousness to be God.
And consciousness needs a brain to sort out all the energies swirling around him to make things work."
That consciousness needs a brain is an unsupported assumption.
I don't think science or religion believes in "random piles of energy" Energy comes into alignment with what we can loosely call "information" whether it's the laws and patterns of Quantum physics, DNA, or other natural (or divine) laws.
If you believe our consciousness somehow jumps into being from the electrical firing of synapses in our brains, how can you deny that the energetic interactions within the cosmic don't also structure some kind of consciousness or awareness?
Again, it's not religion nor science that make both so dangerous and often "Bad for You" It's our distorted human nature that screws up our relationships, religion and application of technology.
Peace
Karl
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
|
"That premise can be refuted by the law of physics(speculation) that all things come from the bottom up. There is no person/god above us pulling the strings in our universe.
The universe, the planet and all life forms started from lower past, and developed to what we have today. No thing or god could have been one step ahead of the universe to make sure it is made to some plan or manifestation."
This premise is being refuted by quantum physics which is starting to show that the mind of the scientist has an affect on the outcome of the experiment. Quantum physicists discovered that when you observe a subatomic particle, your observation is a product of what is called “the entire measurement situation.” This situation involves three elements, namely the subatomic entity, the instrument used and the mind of the scientist. Which would seem to say the opposite of bottom up. That the mind does play a role.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
|
Again Doc, just your assumptions based on a limited conception of the set of possibilities.
Of course, Religion is just as guilty as you are of preconceiving of creation in overly simplistic terms.
It will be a laugh if we die and find out in the next world that an "ultimate god" didn't create this world anymore than mother nature created the environment in the San Diego Zoo (which it did in a sense, and yet did not)
We could be the ant farm for some advanced civilization's science experiment for all we know.
Again, everybody is trying to gain comfort, or political advantage, from having a handle on their WorldView, religious or atheist.
There are other ways of exploring the deep questions of life. How and what factors make people fulfilled or happy? How do we know that? How do we go about choosing how we spend our time and energy wisely, based on what will really work for us and our communities best interests?
Skirting religion, spirituality, or even science has it's freedoms and also it's pitfalls. Life is going to hold your feet to the fire no matter what
Peace
Karl
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
|
Hi Weschrist, :D
In response to your 1/17 post....I think I am ( by god's grace ) a good influence on society. Yet you speak against me who tries to help, encourage, heal and love people. Why ?
Dana, Prayer in itself does not cure cancer. A combination of doctors and medicine mixed with god....or god alone... does.....or does not. Because, sometimes the answer to our request for healing is no....or not quite yet...or not entirely. I found that out in several huge episodes in my own life. Feel free to email me. Peace and Joy, Lynne
Dr. F...There Really is more than the voices in yo head. Really.
Micronut, thanks for the pics.
Sorry I'm behind and still processing posts from two days ago. Work is picking up and Lynne is living somewhat again and this BE GOOD !
Peace and Big Joy to You All !!!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
|
So ....
The final absolute truth is: God exists, he's a person, and he's NOT impersonal and he can be proven.
Without that absolute truth the whole cosmic manifestation would not exist, nor would there ever be any debate whatsoever.
And Jesus Christ is bonafide sakty-avesa avatar nitya siddha, ever liberated soul .........
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
|
Wow, W.Braun, So well put, Sir. I hope to someday soon discuss
the name sakty-avesa avatar nitya siddha with you. It would be a fun and powerful talk amongst friends. : ))
Hope you and Merry are having a great winter...Lynne
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!