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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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Sorry Werner. Seems they don't ask you if you want to be baptized into LDS. Kinda hard to ask a person who's already dead. They will get you for sure. I doubt if they will get Ron. LOL!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2007 - 10:17am PT
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This has been such a fruitful discussion of the lesson(s) of the MMM.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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DMT, I think your spot on,(LOL) except for...
"10. Never EVER accept responsibility for the act. Not in a thousand years. Not ever.
Now that all the bad men who were behind this nightmare are dead, and have been for many years, who might "we" suggest take responsibility for such a evil thing?
The answer to this one question, I feel, is the main objective of Rons OP. I think most of us here, have already chosen what we wish to believe.
I think the problem is that some refuse to believe, that a group of tired, angry, driven from their homes, watch their family members murdered, or die on the gnarly trip across the country people, are incapable of caring out such a thing without the consent of their prophet. Especially in the days of the wild west. These people were pissed off.
There is strong evidence that says, there is no way that the messenger sent to inform Brigham Young of what was about to happen, could have made the trip in time to get back and tell the angry mob, to "let them pass".
The town of New Harmony 30 min north of St. George is trying to put up a memorial statue of Mr. Lee. What do you guys think of that? Yes he's the founder of the town but he's also a mass murderer. I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as they tell the truth on the little plaque.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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I said lessons not "who is responsible" nor "how does one cleverly hide it".
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 07:06pm PT
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Yep Ron, not many noticed that.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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Fat, I suppose Ron's ancestor gave him the Urim and Thummim and Seer stones. You Africans sure got around back then.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2007 - 10:55pm PT
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Uma Thurmin?
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 10:56pm PT
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Fat, back in the 60s, I went to visit a friend in Middle Tennessee and on the coffee table in his living room was a human skull. It had suffered a fracture like a half inch dent that had been healed up long before he died.
My friend contacted the University of Tennessee about it and they told him they already had several hundred of them that they excavated before TVA flooded behind a dam. They had dated them at about 5,000 years.
The point of this is maybe he was one of your tribe of Jews that made the first discovery of America.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 10:58pm PT
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"Uma Thurmin?"
The one with the big thumbs?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 14, 2007 - 11:02pm PT
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There's something instructive about all this for the present.
The Mormons were agrressive towards all outsiders to an extreme. some of my ancestors were in western Kansas and eastern Colorado during their migration. In the oral histories they were about as welcome as a cloud of locusts with theft, murder and kidnapings of young women swirling in their wake.
Joe Smith wasn't known as the American Mohamad for nothing.
What turned the Mormons from a tribal and violent bunch into the rather begnin religion of today?
The threat of anihalation by a division of US calvary.
They all the sudden saw the error of their way and had a whole collection of "revelations" that moderated their behaviour.
It's still the most misogynistic and clanish of all American belief systems with the possible exception of the Jehovas Witnesses.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 15, 2007 - 04:02am PT
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Brilliant.....
David Duke wants you as Grand Wizard of Historical Re-interpretation.........
The Calvary came in 1857 in what east coast editors called "Buchanans Blunder". The Woodruff Manifesto which overuled polygamy was in 1990. No cavalry, one revelation.
The "whole collection" of revelations you're refering to, 99% came before Mormons went west in 1846 and 47.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:37pm PT
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I've often wondered at religion's fascination with gold, which has a man assigned value.
Why would a deity have any interest in gold?
Looks like a savvy god would opt for stainless steel or some other more durable material.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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Some ironic words taken entirely out of context from A Woman Of No Importance:
"The only difference between a saint and a sinner is that every saint has a past, and every sinner a future."
Oscar Wilde
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 15, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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The Mormons were agrressive towards all outsiders to an extreme. some of my ancestors were in western Kansas and eastern Colorado during their migration. In the oral histories they were about as welcome as a cloud of locusts with theft, murder and kidnapings of young women swirling in their wake.
The Mormon Trail didn't go through Kansas or Colorado. Mormons migrated with ox driven wagons, a few with draft horses. Many migrated pulling HANDCARTS.
How would they have the mobility to attack? How would they get to Kansas. (Perhaps they had Ruby Slippers like Dorothy)
Nebraska was as near as the migration came to your ancestor's home. And the Mormon Trail there was directly between the Army garrisons at Fort Kearney and Fort Laramie.
But I can see the eastern news headlines; "RABID MORMONS DESCEND LIKE GENGHIS KHAN ON KANSAS, Robbing....Murdering.....Kidnapping Women.........And Escape Riding Oxen and Pulling Handcarts......"
Perhaps you would show us items from the annals of Kansas and Nebraska to verify these atrocities.
In reality, this stuff comes from pulp writers like Conan Doyle who chose to demonize Mormons to sell their books and readers who chose to believe fiction rather than history......
http://www.cesnur.org/2005/mi_02_06.htm
But Mountain Meadows Massacre DID happen. Pointing to history might help your "agressive Mormons" argument more than folklore and pulp fiction.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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Word got around, thru northern Kansas and Colorado.
While I have no doubt that most of the Mormons were merely the dilusioned followers of a con artist, there was a significant criminal element along with them that caused a permanent attitude amoung the folks they traveled thru that goes far beyond what could be explained by the mere passing of an odd cult thru the region.
There were thefts, murders and abductions in Missouri and northern Kansas. Plenty of contemporary news accounts of them also.
The Mormons seem to reinvent major portions of their creed about every 50 years or so. So, lets keep the charges of revisionisim where they belong.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Sep 18, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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I've been browsing through the NYT archives (since 1851) that are now posted online [nerd alert] and, came across this story from 1860 and thought it fit your thread here. Having grown up in Utah it is very interesting to see the NYT has always had the liberal bend on.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F06E1DE133FE034BC4F52DFB266838B679FDE
Polygamy and its Fruits-The Missionaries-The Pony Express-More Pugnacious Preaching-Death of a Prominent Physician-The Season.
Camp Floyd, UT Wednesday March 21, 1860
"Nothing can afford a stronger condemnation of Mormonism than their treatment of their women, their complaints, and fears for their personal safety in the event of the Army being withdrawn. In all polygamic countries women are treated as though they were animals not to be trusted, and are watched with most jealous care. Utah is rather an aggravation than an exception to this general rule. No Mormon will trust one of his women alone with a brother Mormon, be he ever so devout. They carry this to such an extent that no woman is permitted to go to or from a social party, or anywhere else, attended by and other than her husband, or rather keeper, or father. The rule is a strict Church regulation, and rigidly enforced. Caliph Omar never kept a stricter watch over his youngest wife that Brigham and his lecherous satellites do over their concubines."
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Sep 18, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
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That's liberal?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 18, 2007 - 06:25pm PT
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TGT said, "Word got around, thru northern Kansas and Colorado...
There were thefts, murders and abductions in Missouri and northern Kansas. Plenty of contemporary news accounts of them also.
yep, dem mormons rallied those hand carts from council bluff down to KS and their racing oxen picked up some likely lasses for inclusion into the clan.
i mean if word got around, it must be FACT..
on a different note i saw a hollywood movie something about the DaVinci sumtim ortother. seems as if a descendant of Jesus was alive. i saw that on the big screen it must be true...
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 20, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
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