Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2007 - 11:00pm PT
|
hey you know what?
i don't think we should believe any of it!
i'll bet ALL of it is a sham!
screw what our eyes and ears are telling us-
this war is going GREAT!
we ARE turning a corner!
the iraqis are ALMOST trained!
all the bad guys are AL QUAIDA!
HELL, I"LL BET THEY DID GREET US WITH FLOWERS!!!!
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2007 - 12:14am PT
|
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opinion/19jayamaha.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
bingo, there's your active army version
all of you "screw the pinko liberal version" types who seek out the "good news" on alternative (i.e. well placed propoganda) sites like the one in this thread.
from the article:
VIEWED from Iraq at the tail end of a 15-month deployment, the political debate in Washington is indeed surreal. Counterinsurgency is, by definition, a competition between insurgents and counterinsurgents for the control and support of a population. To believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched. As responsible infantrymen and noncommissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable and feel it has neglected the mounting civil, political and social unrest we see every day. (Obviously, these are our personal views and should not be seen as official within our chain of command.)
The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. Yes, we are militarily superior, but our successes are offset by failures elsewhere. What soldiers call the “battle space” remains the same, with changes only at the margins. It is crowded with actors who do not fit neatly into boxes: Sunni extremists, Al Qaeda terrorists, Shiite militiamen, criminals and armed tribes. This situation is made more complex by the questionable loyalties and Janus-faced role of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Army, which have been trained and armed at United States taxpayers’ expense.
those of you whose heads aren't lodged way up inside your intestines might gain some perspective from this honest, straightforward account- and btw- this is what propoganda does NOT look like, hope this helps to clarify, TGT et al.
seriously, if you are not skeptical of the same story that we have been getting from day one (i.e we are just about to turn the orner...) there exists the strong possibility that you are all to happy to avoid te truth!
and the truth is-
the thruth is that the TRUTH is staring you smack in the face. the whole thing is a sh#t show, and we are all f*#ked, f*#ked if we stay and f*#ked if we go, f*#ked for a generation or more, and our only hope is that just as soon as the criminals who run this country are kicked to the curb, whomever replaces them is taken seriously by the international community and that we are somhow able to foster some cooperation and escape from the nightmare quagmire that is iraq. otherwise it's just a downhill ride until forever gets here.
and then, when ya get old and tell yer kids what happened, all of you wingnut as#@&%es can perpetually blame all the sane americans for losing the war that you were so close to winning, "if only the american public had the stomach for it".
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 01:36am PT
|
I am a Duchess?
|
|
mooser
Trad climber
seattle
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 10:38am PT
|
Thought this article was interesting, though anonymously written. The reality is that four people standing on four corners of an intersection will describe an accident in that intersection from a different perspective. "Every point of view is a view from a point." But whether we're talking from the perspective that the invasion and occupation were "good" things, or from the perspective that they were "bad" things, the fact is that suffering on the part of OTHER people is the prevailing reality.
By Anonymous
Editor’s Note: The author of this article is a contractor who has lived and worked in Baghdad. His identity is known to Truthdig’s editors, but he has written anonymously in order to offer an uncensored account.
I have been living and working in Baghdad for the past 16 months and will be leaving next week for good. I am one of those overpaid Department of Defense contractors, or, as some would call me, a “war profiteer.” Yes, I have profited. I am out of debt and have money saved. But it has cost me. I am a changed man. I have become hardened. I almost feel like a zombie.
Although I work in Baghdad, I have no idea what Baghdad looks like. I have been told by soldiers that it is “like one of those Mexican border towns.” I don’t live in the “heavily fortified” Green Zone, which, although heavily fortified, has been getting hit with mortars on a daily basis. No, I live on an Army base. I live in a trailer with four other men. We each have our own space and I am lucky to have quiet roommates. There is a common latrine and shower.
I have had a lot of experiences over these 16 months, and the situation has not changed one bit. I feel like I am leaving a sinking ship. The only thing that has changed is that more trailers have had to be added for the “surge” of troops that have come in. Oh, and our laundry now takes 72 hours to get done.
The majority of my co-workers are Iraqi, and every single one has been deeply affected by the war. Everyone knows someone who has been killed or kidnapped, whether a family member or a friend. It’s a daily occurrence, and they feel helpless, frustrated and, of course, very sad. Those that had the means have gone to either Jordan or Syria. The others are trapped. No country wants them.
Every day, the Iraqis risk their lives to come to work because they have no choice. The average salary is $300 a month, and many of them are supporting large families. Some of the Iraqis I work with just live in the building we work in rather than risk going home every day. Also, the building usually has electricity, which means there is air conditioning. In Baghdad there is usually one hour of electricity a day and hardly any water. People pitch in and buy a generator and get just enough electricity out of it to have the ceiling fan and refrigerator run.
Most Iraqis come to work by bus since there is a shortage of gasoline in Baghdad. People have to wait in line overnight in order to get gas for their cars. I wonder how we in America would react if we had even one hour without electricity or water and had to wait in a line to fuel our gas-guzzling SUVs. For us on the base, getting gas is a breeze. We just drive up to one of the many gas depots and fill our cars up. I can’t figure out how we have such easy access to gasoline and the Iraqis have none.
I was recently on vacation in the States when the bridge collapsed in Minneapolis. Yes, it was a terrible tragedy, but to the Iraqis that is nothing. Our media spent hours talking about how the bridge collapsed and how people were coping with the grief. The authorities immediately brought in grief counselors. There aren’t enough grief counselors in the world to come to Baghdad and ask the Iraqis how they are coping. But coping they are, and every day is a crapshoot.
Will I get killed or kidnapped or suffer some other horrible tragedy? Most Iraqis feel that they will indeed be killed, whether by the Sunni militia, the Shiite militia, the American Army or a car bomb. They live in constant fear. Could you imagine having to live like that? And why are they suffering so terribly? Because we are giving them freedom. Freedom is something that I fear the Iraqis will not have any time in the near future.
It is with a heavy heart that I leave behind my Iraqi friends. Their lives are absolutely horrible, but they have to keep moving every day to survive. Every day, as they leave for home, I always wonder if it will be the last time I see them.
We have made a mess of Iraq, and the Iraqis, who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, are the ones that are paying the price.
Our troops are losing morale. They know they are fighting a war that will never end, and I feel sorry for them. I feel that the ship will eventually sink and we will have caused the most terrible suffering for a people that just want a day when they can leave their house without the fear of being kidnapped or killed. For the Iraqis, freedom certainly isn’t free: They are paying a heavy price for it.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2007 - 11:53am PT
|
Looks like the Iranians are starting to stir up things along their border with the Kurds in the north, to the extent that they're actually shelling Kurdish villages. Looks like the Kurds took out a IRG chopper though.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2152325,00.html
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
|
(keeping up the style of post)
looks like the administration has only one playbook (can't believe i never saw this one coming!):
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2029117920070820
it's does seem a little bit humorous, if you happen to forget for just a minute how completely disgusting it really is...
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
|
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
|
They have long professed a heartfelt desire to do the same to you.
Who's "they"? My Muslim taxi driver had no problems whatsoever with a fair exchange of $...much more fair than a few of my fares with other religions. I've talked to plenty of amiccable peace loving Muslims. You?
my claim is that "religious fanatacism of any flavor" is the problem. Plenty of Eric Rudolfs in the world...
but since the Iraqi Constitution actually established Iraq as an "Islamic State" (part 2a) in which Sharia is above democracy, why don't you parse that one out for us....
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
|
France has taken steps to a 'partner' in Iraq's future to welcome her as a young, new, Democracy.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070820131906.5cqcv6s5&show_article=1
Before you get too excited though, read the very last quote from the article...
"This is just the beginning, I hope, of sort of an end to the crisis. We want to play our cards and our role, but not today -- neither tomorrow -- but yes, one of these days," he said on Sunday. (That's Kouchner's quote from the article).
"One of these days"...same 'ol France. At least they kinda talk a bit tougher...kinda.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2007 - 05:04pm PT
|
I dunno, I'd read the Iraqi Constitution before you get all hepped up...boys and girls (US) dying for Sharia...what's good for Dyncorp is good for TITAN?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2007 - 11:51am PT
|
Huge news today. The 'King of Clubs' has cut a deal to cooperate with U.S. and Iraqi troops to quell violence and seek out trouble-makers. Initially I thought this was a bad idea, but this guy is a big catch and knows the 'bad guys' very well. He could provide a lot of information if he hasn't already. Here's the story about 'Red';
Baghdad, 22 August (AKI) - The leader of Iraq's banned Baath party, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, has decided to join efforts by the Iraqi authorities to fight al-Qaeda, one of the party's former top officials, Abu Wisam al-Jashaami, told pan-Arab daily Al Hayat.
"AlDouri has decided to sever ties with al-Qaeda and sign up to the programme of the national resistance, which includes routing Islamist terrorists and opening up dialogue with the Baghdad government and foreign forces," al-Jashaami said.
Al-Douri has decided to deal directly with US forces in Iraq, according to al-Jashaami. He figures in the 55-card deck of "most wanted" officials from the former Iraqi regime issued by the US government.
In return, for cooperating in the fight against al-Qaeda, al-Douri has asked for guarantees over his men's safety and for an end to Iraqi army attacks on his militias.
Recent weeks have seen a first step in this direction, when Baathist fighters cooperated with Iraqi government forces in hunting down al-Qaeda operatives in the volatile Diyala province and in several districts of the capital, Baghadad.
Although the Baath party was officially banned after US-led forces in 2003 toppled the regime of Iraq's late president Saddam Hussein, its members have fought in the insurgency.
Until just a few months ago, former Baath party members were helping Islamists carry out terrorist attacks against US forces in Iraq.
The link;
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1225974555
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2007 - 11:57am PT
|
awesome!
clearly a win!
now we can arm them (further) to the teeth.
they will help drive out AQI.
they will remain whole with support from US and Iraqi forces.
then when we leave, all hell will break loose.........
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2007 - 02:18pm PT
|
perfect play by that guy, can't turn him down can ya?
but of course he, like all the others, is just jockeying for a good spot at the trough!
the other half of the al qaida myth (the 1st half being that AQ is the primary security problem or obstacle to peace in iraq) is that i's so easy to pretend yo are 'winning the war' if you can sell the public on their being one really bad mean terrible enemy.
remember when we started hearing about AQ again?
pretty much when US politico types grudgingly admitted that we are in the middle of a CIVIL WAR.
so, everyone admits it's a civil war?
well how do we counter that?
how do we convince people watchig tv at home that we can accomplish whatever it was that we were lying about being able to do so quickly and easily?
simple, play the same old 9/11 card, but this time double down!
AQ to the rescue baby!
surge!
SURGE!
SURGE!
you go george bush man!
mr. president you KICK ASS!!
YEAH!!!
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
|
This is interesting, from a Sunni Dentist
"Tuesday, August 28, 2007
Crossing Anbar
We've been getting some reports about the improvement in security in Anbar in the last few months but little was said about the highway that runs across the province.
The several hundred kilometer western section of the international highway is technically Iraq's second "port" in a way as it connects Iraq with Syria and Jordan and was for years the only window to the world when all airports and the southern ports in Basra were closed to traffic in the 1990s.
For most of the time between 2004 and 2007 taking this road was considered suicidal behavior as the chance someone would be robbed or killed was too high.
But with the tribal awakening in Anbar that cleared large parts of the province from al-Qaeda the highway is expected to be safer, but how much safer?
My family returned yesterday from a vacation in Syria and they have used this road twice in six weeks. I had tried hard to convince them not to do that and take a flight instead but now after hearing their story I'm convinced that my fear was not justified; the road is safe…
This is good not only for Iraq's economy and traveling but also for the American troops who can use this road as an alternative supply route in case the British troops withdraw and leave the strategic southern highway between Kuwait and Baghdad unguarded.
Back to the story; there are two travel plans for passenger SUV's and buses from Damascus to Baghdad; one includes leaving Damascus between 10 pm and midnight, reaching the Syrian border control before dawn, entering the Iraqi border control at 8 am and arriving in Baghdad around sunset. A total of approximately 20 hours with 6 to 7 hours lost in waiting and passport control.
The second plan includes leaving Damascus at noon and here convoys carrying the passengers continue to move all the way until a short distance northwest of Ramadi. At this point the time would be between midnight and 2 am and since that's within curfew hours in Baghdad, the drivers park their vehicles and everyone gets to sleep 3 or 4 hours and wait for the sun to rise and then the journey would continue.
Now the first plan sounds predictable, safe and well planned given the distance and necessary stops. But look at the second one carefully and try to picture the scene; dozens of passenger SUV's (GMC trucks mostly) and buses parking in he middle of nowhere in a zone that was until recently the heart of al-Qaeda's Islamic state! Obviously the drivers and families feel safe enough that they know they won't be robbed and slaughtered by cold-blooded terrorists. Even more interesting, this parking and resting zone was not designated nor protected by the Iraqi or American forces but simply an arrangement the drivers managed on their own perhaps with cooperation from the local tribes.
I still laugh every time I think of this incredible change and I honestly wouldn't have believed it if the story teller wasn't my father.
This sign of positive progress brings to my mind a sad irony. Back in 2004 when taking the Anbar highway was out of question for me, the Sunni dentist, I made the trip back and fourth between Baghdad and Basra countless times without any fear.
Now, I'm ready to try the trip through the west, but going south through the militia infested land is something I'd never dare do at this stage.
Aside from security my father told me one more thing that shook the common idea about the numbers of Iraqi refugees fleeing to Syria. Apparently the direction of movement is influenced by the season to a certain degree.
When my family's turn to pass through the passports control on the Iraqi side came, the vehicles that were still behind them on the Syrian side outnumbered the ones coming from the Iraqi side.
And that's not the only indication to the seasonal aspect of Iraqis' migration.
Six weeks ago when my family hired a driver to take them to Damascus the fare was $110 for each passenger since finding a car to take you out of Baghdad was difficult while the return trip from Damascus would cost only $25 per passenger because drivers were ready to accept any amount of money rather than to return to Baghdad empty handed.
Guess what, the opposite is now true!
It's supply and demand 101, this change in cost reflects a change in demand on the two ends of the route suggesting that a good percentage of Iraqis who flooded Syria in the beginning of the summer season were just trying to escape the summer heat and enjoy a simple vacation, like my family did.
It doesn't mean a refugees issue doesn't exist, but it does mean that Iraqis could sometimes be just normal tourists...
Posted by Omar @ 22:07
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!