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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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May 13, 2007 - 02:43am PT
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"I wish you no undeserved evil but if I have to show up on your block to show you the difference between a Jody and a Jennie, my "unconditional love" may have lost a bit of its shine."--J/J
Since you started so tarnished, I won't expect too much. Thanks.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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May 13, 2007 - 02:50am PT
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"You are starting to sound like Jody... hey, wait a minute...'
Westy--I think you're about the funniest man alive...right after BVB! ;-)
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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 03:06am PT
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Hey, I thought I was the funniest man alive. what gives? Is this some fickle female prerogative?
L....how about drawing in your claws. They are sharp enough.
Jennie.....How about trying to see that it is less about you and more about the way Christianity appears to lots of people. A sort of " We are right and you are going to hell". This doesn't engender a whole lot of Love or acceptance from others and is one of the primary things wrong with modern Christianity. It gives you an appearance of an attitude of superiority and raises peoples hackles. So how about practicing one of Jesus' teachings to forgive 7 times 70. You wrote
" I wish you no undeserved evil " Does this mean that you would wish her deserved evil? Who deserves evil? I know that you can do better then that. How about it?
And L....so can you.
Moosie
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 13, 2007 - 03:27am PT
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Does it really make sense to get all pissed off at someone for calling you Jody? Does it really make a difference? How old are you... 8?
You're apparently new here, weschrist. The Jody=Jennie cop out has been the spear and shield of the ST feint and attack crew for months. No, being called Jody per se, doesn't offend me if I'm in friendly or joking country. But here it's being used as diversion.
Do you think I'm entitled to an identity? Does that identity entitlement end when you disagree with what I post. I don't believe I've accused anyone here of being Kodos, Andanother or the rest of the happy list. Perhaps I should try that tactic next time someone posts a contrary opinion. I suppose I should be thankful you only accuse me of being Jody.
Read L's post regarding my explanation of the Hebrew text. It was an asinine rant completely out of context with what I posted. She ignored the principal issue of my retort and grabbed the Jody=Jennie life raft. If you want to cop out, too, go on. But don't expect me to address your arguments on the forum if you decline to even concede me an identity in posting.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 13, 2007 - 03:50am PT
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Jennie.....How about trying to see that it is less about you and more about the way Christianity appears to lots of people. A sort of " We are right and you are going to hell". This doesn't engender a whole lot of Love or acceptance from others and is one of the primary things wrong with modern Christianity. It gives you an appearance of an attitude of superiority and raises peoples hackles. So how about practicing one of Jesus' teachings to forgive 7 times 70. You wrote
" I wish you no undeserved evil " Does this mean that you would wish her deserved evil? Who deserves evil? I know that you can do better then that. How about it?
Mr Moosie, Check my posts. I don't believe I've made a post here or elsewhere that I was always right and whomever else is going to hell. I fact I'm fairly humbled by the realization of my own imperfection and that I may well be headed to hell.
You want me to do better than what? Shall I ATTEMPT to continue a measured and hopefully logical discourse while someone else continues to bait, willfully misconstrue my posts and then when she has no purchase left, crawl back into the "you're a sock puppet" retreat?
I'm well aware of my weakness as a christian. Perhaps you should give me an example of how a true christian behaves when the Phillistines start throwing rocks (and very old rocks at that). Shall I lay down and die? Should I laugh and say hee, heee, hee I'm Jody? Should I ignore them? Should I beg their forgiveness for my weakness in believing in a supreme being? Tell me what's proper here.
I knew when I sent the "offending post" that all the guys would rush in to be the peacemakers. OK peacemakers, give me a step by step on how to address someone who reads completely spurious meanings into a post you make. Do I address it head on, ignore it or just lay down and admit defeat?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 13, 2007 - 04:05am PT
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Dear Mr Crowley,
I'm sorry you're being ignored at the moment. The downside of courtly intrigue is that the jester is often ignored when swords have been drawn. But it will pass---after all I'm a christian and the other participants are even greater. You will certainly come back into our fond attention in due course.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 04:37am PT
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Edited out.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 13, 2007 - 04:47am PT
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Yes, Mr Moosie, you indeed list my weakness. As far as calling Jody on his so called "bull", well, you don't know the history, there. We don't agree on a number of things. But Jody doesn't deliberately misconstrue my posts or attempt to bait me. It's easier to recognize friends when they ACT like friends. Jody has been a friend from the beginning so please forgive me if I save my criticism of Jody for private communication. If I were sitting at the forum of Love and Truth I might address Jody for all to hear but since this remains a highly contentious forum with everyone choosing up sides, I feel compelled to cummunicate any criticism to him privately.
I don't recall meeting L online before tonight, although I had read a few of her posts. I do NOT wish her an ill fate, but when someone makes such a spurious attack out of the blue, with no shred of validity, it must be addressed. I would have used gentler words if I had any promise she would respond positively to such a post. From the tone of her attack I realized she would not. So I used sharp words. I'm sorry people were offended. But an issue of that portent had to be addressed or there is no reason for me remaining on this thread.
I didn't mean to be on a high horse but since tall steeds seem to be the fashion, here, perhaps I was struggling to see my friends eye-to-eye.
You are probably correct that I'm a poor excuse for a Christian. And indeed, the title "Christian" is not an entitlement. The Lord, alone, defines and decides who his disciples are.
You and I may well disagree on the essence of Christianity itself. I don't accept the "lay-down-and-die" interpretation that is so dear to the masochistic faithful. (not that I'm accusing you of such.) But if one does not stand up for the truth, all the faith, theology and kind words mean nothing. That was my intention, and if you believe I failed completely, I will take your opinion into account. But I will have to remain firm on the initial post I made about language, although at this stage of conflict, the point seems rather academic.
Good night.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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May 13, 2007 - 11:01am PT
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"People believe what they want to believe"
>>TGT: "at least you got that right!"
And the rest, too. Are you familiar with ancient near-eastern religions?
>>WBraun:
"And that will hold true for everything you say too cintune.
If this is what you really BELIEVE ....."
That's turning it around. If Lord Krsna or Yesua of Nazareth provide spiritual resonance and closure for one person or another, it seems to me that it is because those people want that. Whatever floats your boat. Namaste.
>> Jody:"Cintune better hope he is right.
What if I don't hope I'm right? Hope is a double-edged thing.
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 11:04am PT
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Want
I want to breath air.
No, everyone NEEDS to breath air.
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L
climber
NoName City and It Don't Look Pretty
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May 13, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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Dang it! I went to bed at 11:51 and missed the whipped cream topping to our wondrous religious repartee pie.
Westy--You're beginning to be my JC!
Moosie--Don't be jealous of the "Funniest Man Alive" moniker. I find humor--male or female--to be the Ben-Gay of the ST strained neck. It's a roving honor, to be sure.
Jennie--1. Implying you were Jody was a troll. I was told that by another STer and wanted to see if it was true. You took the bait like a starving grouper, and became very defensive and simutaneously offensive, the way Jody does. When you threatened to come show me you weren't Jody, but with your "unconditional love" not so shiny, I figured a highway patrolman wouldn't do that (not in writing on a public forum), so the troll was complete. Thanks for solving the mystery, and I'm sorry you got so upset over something so innocuous.
2. You totally missed the point of my post in response to you Hebrew lesson. It wasn't all about you, dear. It was about the many ways people on this forum justify war, murder in the name of profit, killing out of fear and ignorance, and imperialism. My response was highlighting the fact that people can interpret anything from the Bible in many ways, depending on who's paying for the interpretation, and who's getting paid. The fact that you, and Jody, needed to attack me says a great deal about your own belief systems...much more than it does about mine.
3. Terribly sorry if I offended you--that wasn't my intent at all. It was what you were implying that prompted my response. If you go back and read most of what I say with a smile on your face instead of a snarl, you might find my true intent much more easily.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 13, 2007 - 12:01pm PT
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I don't really have a dog in this fight, but let me ask the participants a question.
Reasonable and intelligent people have opinions and arguements regarding god, worshop, faith and religion. These can vary greatly and be exclusive of each other, and tend to be absolute. So the many different forms of religious and spiritual beliefs on display in the many arguments swirling around the forum seem to be irreconciable. Not only the "believer" vs. the "non-believer" but among the various types of belief.
How is this reconciled?
If it is a subjective issue, as Werner posted previously: "You will know" then there is no reconcilliation, there is just the personal experience of whatever makes sense. This can be far outside of established religious belief, but be no less valid a life experience.
How can one question another's personal experience?
When such a profound insight is achieved as to the "meaning of it all" by someone, what are the ways in which this insight is questioned, examined, pieced apart by others.
What is it about a personal experience that compels that person to force it on others?
Essentially, personal experience is just that personal, it may not translate to other's experiences, etc... Is one persons experience any more valid than anothers? How do we determine that?
It seems the "truth" we are searching is not an objective truth, but a personal truth, which by its nature is subjective. This is not trivializing the power of an idea, we all know that wars have been fought and many people suffered the clash of ideas, especially religious ideas...
...in this sense the only validation of such a "truth" is our faith, our belief. Because of the power of that faith and belief to do bad as much as good, isn't it important for us all to use care in what we believe in and are faithful to, and in how far we are willing to go to insist on the validity of our belief and our faith in what we see is "truth"?
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 01:05pm PT
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How can one question another's personal experience?
Against a standard. Even here we have standard, example, NIST.
So there must be absolute standard.
Good thinking Ed.
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frodolf
climber
Sweden
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May 13, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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Ed Hartouni.
The problem with subjectivity is that it is just that, SUBJECTIVE. It has nothing to do with what's true. "Real" truth is detached from subjectivity. I firmly believe there exists only one world, and that we all share it, and it can't be subjective whether God exists or not; he's either here, or he's not. In the real "I-can-see-it" world, that is.
To say that truth is subjective is false. Simple as that, it is not true. Santa Claws DID exist for me up till the age of four, but did he really, really exist? No, of course not. But, in a world where truth is subjective, Santa Claws brought me my presents down the chimney once a year. He REALLY did.
Ok, there is only one world, blah blah. Now to the problem of knowing whose perception of the world is true. The answer is....(drumroll)... we can't know. The only thing we can be certain of is that in the search of how the real world works, we can only rely on science. Maybe science will lead us to believe in God, maybe not. Maybe we'll get wiser, maybe not. Maybe we'll be more peaceful, maybe not. Maybe we'll all get free beers on Fridays, maybe not. But whatever the results of science, it will be the truth. And the truth is independent of what we want AND believe.
We only need God because we're afraid of being alone. Humanity is as courageous as a five year old in the dark. And what makes me mad is that it often seem like the people crying the loudest, the ones who are really afraid, are treated as heroes, or at least with a big chunk of respect. Fervor, we call it. I call it fear. Yes, Werner, fear of drowning, if you will.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 13, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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The French philosopher Blaise Pascal had another way of looking at this. He was interested in consequences. So what he posited was that you could either believe, or not believe. Either way, you could be right or wrong.
If you were a believer, and right, no problem.
If you were a believer, and wrong, likewise no problem - just a little wasted time while alive.
If you were a non-believer, and right, no problem.
If you were a non-believer, and wrong, big problem.
So the rational safe solution was to be a believer - you just had to work out which brand was to your taste.
He was joking. I think.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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May 13, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
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Well here I am eating humble pie again, friends! I sincerely admit I'm a failed Christian (though I don't doubt the veracity of the faith.)
L, I apologize to you, first and foremost. You are clearly more charitable than I imagined from what little I had read from your posts. I hope you will accept my apology. We definitely don't agree on some things but we don't have to. You already knew I wouldn't be "showing up on your block." Threats are easy to throw out when in the heat of anger but I would be too worried about the option of getting my own behind getting kicked to follow through on that. I hope the two of us can be more civil and friendly in the future.
Several others were offended by my sarcasm and "war dialogue". I'm not really a war bird but sometimes I DO feel like I'm in a jungle, here. I do regret offending you. Several of the points I tried to make, I will have to remain in belief of, but admit there are more polished ways of presenting on a public forum.
Hopefully, for the sake of your endurance and this writers own pride, my apologies won't have to become a common occurance on this forum.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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May 13, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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Frodolf had the best point in a while.
Truth is the actual reality. It's not someone's perception. It's not subjective. It's not interprative.
Weschrist: normally I'm right there with you, though you seem a little sharp in this particular thread, but I can prove I exist objectively.
If we're in the same room and you literally see me, then two things have occurred: 1) observation and 2) identification.
Those two things imply two others: 1) existence and 2) conciousness.
They are the noncontradictory premise of all logic and proofs - which are just ways of describing reality in a mutually recognizable language.
Don't play games with words that lend credence to subjectifying reality; to do so gives a moral sanction to unreality.
Which is what Christians DO.
Think about it, without the personal insults for a moment.
Define God.
Christian's definitions of God are as follows (when the language is boiled down to layman's terms): A superior being that man can't know - he's more than man can imagine (as is heaven and hell, by the way.)
Descriptions of his power include everything that man can't do - he's all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. Basically he's everything that man can't do or know. I've another description for it: He's unreality. Literally.
-Aaron
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 13, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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ah, do you guys know the difference between use and mention?
So "truth" refers to the word we use (and it's definition, etc) when we are talking about truth. How it is definied, what it actually is, can be as sticky a debate as what we have going on here, and not unrelated.
What I was getting at in what I wrote is that we may also disagree on what is true...
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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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"Crowley started a thread titled: Republicans are idiots
Crowley is a hypocritical moron"
"Crowley, I invite you to quit trying to change the subject"
You call him a hypocrit and a moron but you want him to stay on subject.
Good grief Jody. You scare the living daylights out of me sometimes. You are a man who makes his living carrying a gun and whose responisblity is to the protection of the public and yet you make arguments like that.
Crowley isn't a hypocrit. Do you even know what a hypocrit is? Try someone who states one belief but lives another way. That sounds more like YOU. You are the onel who professes to believe is in the teachings of Jesus. You are the one who belongs to a religion that claims moral superiority. Do you even know what Jesus teaches? Grow up Jody, and stop using the excuse that Jesus was perfect and you aren't. If that is true then you should at least recognize that you owe Crowley an apology. At least Jennie has the courage to admit when she is out of line. Do you?
Crowley believes what he says and he stands behind everything he says. He even has the courage to apologize when he is shown to be wrong. Thats not a hypocrit. I call that stand up. I may disagree with Crowley and I may not like his tactics, but I respect him a whole lot more then I do Christians who bully, brag, pommel others and then whine, I am not perfect like Jesus is.
Grow up.......
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WBraun
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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Socialclimber
You are an animal.
We are humans beings.
Go bark at the moon .....
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