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Don Paul
Social climber
Denver CO
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May 22, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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What is it like to be a bat?
Classic 70s article about the subjective feeling of "being" yourself. For MikeL and others who begin with their own observations and experiences in meditation or just living from day to day (as opposed to a scientist in a lab coat observing a rat) this may be more to your liking. Still, whatever you experience in meditation is just something your brain thought of, since there are no other ways for information to enter your brain other than your nervous system.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 22, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
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We have much to learn about the brain. I view the scientists as explorers. They try to go out past the borders of what we know and extend the map.
There was a time when humans just lived on the planet without much knowledge of its extent or how it fits together.
During the Age of Exploration there were those wrote, "here be dragons" on uncharted areas.
The Earth was guessed, on several kinds of evidence, to have a spherical shape by early Greek thinkers, and its circumference was measured by Eratosthenes a couple hundred years BC. Yet Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius had his reasons for thinking that the Earth could not possibly be a sphere, and he was a smart guy.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 22, 2018 - 03:40pm PT
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Yet Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius had his reasons for thinking that the Earth could not possibly be a sphere, and he was a smart guy.
Really good point, imo. He was, we believe, wrong. But he was not "stupid." Maybe it's the culture of these threads, but it seems that we bandy the term "stupid" and "idiot" around way too quickly toward people that don't share our (of course correct) perspectives.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 22, 2018 - 03:43pm PT
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We have much to learn about the brain. I view the scientists as explorers. They try to go out past the borders of what we know and extend the map.
Well said, hear, hear!
By the way, I think of Lucretius as one of the brightest human beings who ever lived (who wrote something down that survived). More than anyone, he makes me see that I could have been born 2000+ years earlier and had my same basic worldview (except about the round or not earth, I suppose).
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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What does seem pointless to me is the desire to live on in some manner after death.
You don't have any choice.
The living entity itself is never born nor ever dies.
The gross materialists think they are the material body and thru that illusion they stupidly think they are dead when they are kicked out of their material bodies.
The gross materialists are always clueless to their own selves .....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 22, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
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it seems that we bandy the term "stupid" and "idiot" around way too quickly toward people that don't share our (of course correct) perspectives.
With deference, I am not claiming a correct perspective. I have met many wise people who don't hold the same beliefs I do. I respect their beliefs, including the prospect of my being in the wrong. And then I go on doing what I need to do, a bit wiser I believe.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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May 22, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
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Does soul exist?
Depends a bit on the definition I suppose..
Descartes may have said it best...but The only thing I know every moment...The greatest mystery..the one ive seen no measure for. I see, think, feel...
Yeah..and I doubt it's just me or just man or just mammals...I'd be willing to bet ..all things have it...good bad and whatever
Often I think i feel it in the land..im pretty sure...Like Yosemite.
Some land...it seems happy and caring...some seems.angry ..regardless how i am feeling.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 22, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
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With deference, I am not claiming a correct perspective.
I wasn't referring to you, and I'm so sorry if I gave that impression!
I was talking in general terms about this site. I've never seen so much "stupid," and "idiot," and "psychotic" thrown around. There are so many threads that can't remain even basically civil.
YOU've been great, imo, and, again, I'm sorry to have given the wrong impression.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 22, 2018 - 07:11pm PT
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madbolter1,
I don't see many who claim outright a correct perspective, but the way we put forward our ideas in this place makes it awkward to state a position and then soften it with buts, ifs, and ors.
I am as guilty of combativeness and incorrectness as anyone. And even though I don't usually use words like 'idiot' or 'moron' they do come to mind occasionally.
However, I am pretty sure of your own sincere and difficult search for truth and the attempt to express it and I did not take your statement personally.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 22, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
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good reply (though long) madbolter
as I have said again and again, I don't believe science is in the business of providing "truth" in the apparently contemporary meaning of the word... and even something like "scientific truth" is even a bad dodge, science changes as we add more of it.
however, the "induction" that physics makes (and the sciences) generalizes in such a way to make it difficult to accept amendments. to pick a controversial topic like climate change, it's not like you can substitute in some different science and get agreement with the body of observations, which goes well beyond "just climate science."
there are a number of examples.
but let's not be so harsh on the theorists, they have amazing capacity to generalize. I have told the story of Eddington's discovery of fusion as the source of energy in the stars (our Sun in particular). It was not just a idle speculation, but an inspiration from a very different set of scientific measurements, the precise measurement of atomic masses. It is also "not yet one more piece of experimental fact" added to a pile.
that these atomic measurements would have such a profound implication to our understanding of astrophysical phenomena which, to that time had eluded all explanation, points to a very powerful intellectual process. fusion was observed in the laboratory 10 years later... by then the theorists had poured the foundation for stellar science.
I think there is more to science then just a collection of facts... something you seem to resist
...although you might just be jerking my chain too, with your "earnest" claims.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 22, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
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I think there is more to science then just a collection of facts... something you seem to resist
Thank you for that post, Ed. It seems to me that you packed a lot of (correct, imo) insight into a short post.
I'll say that I agree with you that science is much more than a collection of facts. In your previous post you emphasized relationships between facts and between facts and theories. You've also talk about the logical implications within theories. I understand, agree with, and respect all of those points about science! Indeed, the aspects of science you emphasize can be well seen in a comparison between science and, say, astrology.
The predictive capacity of science is flatly amazing and has done much to elevate humanity!
I particularly appreciate your example of climate change. You expressed nuance and disciplined thinking that's difficult for armchair "scientists" to emulate.
Please be assured that I'm never jerking your chain or arguing other than in earnest!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 22, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
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Mine got sucked out when they took my high school yearbook picture. You should have heard the little fella shriek!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 22, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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I bet that camera never was the same, again.
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Ashrogers
Gym climber
Arizona
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May 27, 2018 - 06:54am PT
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Sure it doues, how can you doubt that?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 27, 2018 - 08:55am PT
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It was not just a idle speculation, but an inspiration from a very different set of scientific measurements.
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One of the miscues here is that anything not based on measurements is "speculation." And if someone states a simple experiential truth, some ask for ... measurements to vouchsafe that speculation.
Not to say that measurements are not the gold standard for discerning objective markers for the physical world. They are. However the phenomenological dimension renders more than "poetry" under certain circumstances.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 27, 2018 - 04:00pm PT
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Largo has a good sense of humour.
As I've said 1,000 times, this is not a quantifying exercise
JL post
7 April 2013
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 27, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
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And if someone states a simple experiential truth . . .
Oh oh, we need to define "truth." Good luck with that.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 27, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
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lies are inside your head. - Terry Pratchett
Yes, Terry.
But why don't they stay there? Why do they have to go outside?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 27, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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This is TRUTH!
http://www.acim.org/Lessons/lesson.html?lesson=199
A COURSE IN MIRACLES = ACIM Lesson 199
I am not a body. I am free.
Freedom must be impossible as long as you perceive a body as yourself. The body is a limit. Who would seek for freedom in a body looks for it where it can not be found. The mind can be made free when it no longer sees itself as in a body, firmly tied to it and sheltered by its presence. If this were the truth, the mind were vulnerable indeed!
The mind that serves the Holy Spirit is unlimited forever, in all ways, beyond the laws of time and space, unbound by any preconceptions, and with strength and power to do whatever it is asked. Attack thoughts cannot enter such a mind, because it has been given to the Source of love, and fear can never enter in a mind that has attached itself to love. It rests in God. And who can be afraid who lives in Innocence, and only loves?
It is essential for your progress in this course that you accept today's idea, and hold it very dear. Be not concerned that to the ego it is quite insane. The ego holds the body dear because it dwells in it, and lives united with the home that it has made. It is a part of the illusion that has sheltered it from being found illusory itself.
Here does it hide, and here it can be seen as what it is. Declare your innocence and you are free. The body disappears, because you have no need of it except the need the Holy Spirit sees. For this, the body will appear as useful form for what the mind must do. It thus becomes a vehicle which helps forgiveness be extended to the all-inclusive goal that it must reach, according to God's plan.
Cherish today's idea, and practice it today and every day. Make it a part of every practice period you take. There is no thought that will not gain thereby in power to help the world, and none which will not gain in added gifts to you as well. We sound the call of freedom round the world with this idea. And would you be exempt from the acceptance of the gifts you give?
The Holy Spirit is the home of minds that seek for freedom. In Him they have found what they have sought. The body's purpose now is unambiguous. And it becomes perfect in the ability to serve an undivided goal. In conflict-free and unequivocal response to mind with but the thought of freedom as its goal, the body serves, and serves its purpose well. Without the power to enslave, it is a worthy servant of the freedom which the mind within the Holy Spirit seeks.
Be free today. And carry freedom as your gift to those who still believe they are enslaved within a body. Be you free, so that the Holy Spirit can make use of your escape from bondage, to set free the many who perceive themselves as bound and helpless and afraid. Let love replace their fears through you. Accept salvation now, and give your mind to Him Who calls to you to make this gift to Him. For He would give you perfect freedom, perfect joy, and hope that finds its full accomplishment in God.
You are God's Son. In immortality you live forever. Would you not return your mind to this? Then practice well the thought the Holy Spirit gives you for today. Your brothers stand released with you in it; the world is blessed along with you, God's Son will weep no more, and Heaven offers thanks for the increase of joy your practice brings even to it. And God Himself extends His Love and happiness each time you say:
I am not a body. I am free.
I hear the Voice that God has given me,
and it is only this my mind obeys.
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